[slip knot]

This happened to me yesterday at one of our local matches.

The wind blew a no shoot target into my field of view and I
put a bullet through it. It broke the perf, so i got the hit as
well as the no-shoot. I claimed range equipment malfuction, as the target
could move forward and backwards in the stand, blocking the target
behind it.

I lost and took the no-shoot hit, and went on with the match.

Any input..............

[ihatepickles]

Quote

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

I believe range equipment failure is a fair call. However, if the RO didn't observe what happened it could be hard to argue that.

[slip knot]

The RO saw it but was new, so that is why the MD was called in.
My self, I have only been shooting for 24 years, RO/CRO 5 nationals
and countles area matches, but didn't want to make a big thing out of it, being
just a local match and all.

This post has been edited by slip knot: 11 May 2009 - 06:56 AM

[Nik Habicht]

ihatepickles, on May 11 2009, 09:16 AM, said:

Quote

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

I believe range equipment failure is a fair call. However, if the RO didn't observe what happened it could be hard to argue that.

O.K. turn it around: If the wind blows the no-shoot the other way in the stand, opening up the view of the target(s) behind it, would you also support a mandatory re-shoot in that situation? Because that's what you'd need to do for consistencies sake......

I had to make that same call (as the RM) at a different match yesterday --- and I denied the re-shoot. The shooter -- a CRO, with Area and National match officiating experience -- accepted the argument. We shoot on a range that's extremely windy probably 4-6 matches/year --- we'd be issuing reshoots for wind constantly if we were to interpret 4.6.1 that tightly.....

It did however occur to me yesterday, that shims would probably be a good thing to have on hand --- specifically to shim all critical (separate no-shoots in the area, at extreme angles around vision barriers, etc.) targets in place on windy days......

[ihatepickles]

Nik Habicht, on May 11 2009, 12:33 PM, said:

ihatepickles, on May 11 2009, 09:16 AM, said:

Quote

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

I believe range equipment failure is a fair call. However, if the RO didn't observe what happened it could be hard to argue that.

O.K. turn it around: If the wind blows the no-shoot the other way in the stand, opening up the view of the target(s) behind it, would you also support a mandatory re-shoot in that situation? Because that's what you'd need to do for consistencies sake......

Ah, but as the shooter this is not my call. I couldn't say whether I support it one way or the other, as I have no vote... that's the RO's call. I support the rulebook.

But seriously... yes, I would support the reshoot even if the wind helped me. I want the RO to apply their judgment fairly though in both cases.

This post has been edited by ihatepickles: 11 May 2009 - 09:46 AM

[ima45dv8]

Nik Habicht, on May 11 2009, 12:33 PM, said:

It did however occur to me yesterday, that shims would probably be a good thing to have on hand --- specifically to shim all critical (separate no-shoots in the area, at extreme angles around vision barriers, etc.) targets in place on windy days......

Used shotgun hulls work well and are priced right. Pinch the open end to flatten it and shove it down into the space between the target stake and the hole.

[Nik Habicht]

ihatepickles, on May 11 2009, 12:45 PM, said:

Ah, but as the shooter this is not my call. I couldn't say whether I support it one way or the other, as I have no vote... that's the RO's call. I support the rulebook.

So, two posts up you have an opinion --- but now you don't?

ihatepickles, on May 11 2009, 12:45 PM, said:

But seriously... yes, I would support the reshoot even if the wind helped me. I want the RO to apply their judgment fairly though in both cases.

We all want the RO to apply their judgment fairly, and in a way that doesn't influence the match. That said, weather happens --- some shooters wind up shooting stages with bagged targets in the rain, others get to shoot those same stages with unbagged targets in better light.....

Wind -- as long as it doesn't knock over targets/props/walls during a shooter's run, is just another one of those things that needs to be dealt with.....

Some days it helps, other days it bites.....

As long as we play outdoors, the weather will have an effect....

[Nik Habicht]

ima45dv8, on May 11 2009, 12:55 PM, said:

Nik Habicht, on May 11 2009, 12:33 PM, said:

It did however occur to me yesterday, that shims would probably be a good thing to have on hand --- specifically to shim all critical (separate no-shoots in the area, at extreme angles around vision barriers, etc.) targets in place on windy days......

Used shotgun hulls work well and are priced right. Pinch the open end to flatten it and shove it down into the space between the target stake and the hole.

Thanks! Now I'll need to find some range time to make some --- because clearly that would be more than a Home Depot run....

[lugnut]

We had a real windy match yesterday too. We had props getting knocked over all day long! Fortunately no Noshoots jumping in people's way. I think you did the honorable thing by not making a big stink about it. If it were a major match, reshoot for sure IMO. However- in a local match- when the stakes aren't as high and the resources/help are probably on the light side, I'd say no reshoot. It's equipment failure IMO regardless- no question.

[Nik Habicht]

I'm going to move this to USPSA Rules forum, where it probably belongs......

[Flexmoney]

It sounds to me like a reshoot, but I don't know the situation. How was there a setup that allowed a NS to blow in front of the shoot target?


Regardless of the match level...the place to make your case would be at the match, per the rule book (arb).

[Joe4d]

If the target was still visible from the shooting area, I'd say no reshoot. Wind, rain, sun etc is part of an outdoor match.

[Erucolindon]

I'm not sure which match people shot at yesterday, but I was at McDonald on Saturday and had the pleasure of watching lots of stuff get blown around. Steel was blown over. Fences collapsed. Targets were buckling under the wind. Combining weather and hard course designs, it was a tough match. I still had lots of fun though. I'd have to see to what extent a target was obscured by wind to make the call on this one. It would definitely be time consuming to do as many re-shoots as might be necessary under the proposed ruling if in favor of the original poster.

This post has been edited by Erucolindon: 11 May 2009 - 02:35 PM

[Nik Habicht]

Flexmoney, on May 11 2009, 04:59 PM, said:

It sounds to me like a reshoot, but I don't know the situation. How was there a setup that allowed a NS to blow in front of the shoot target?


Regardless of the match level...the place to make your case would be at the match, per the rule book (arb).

In our case, the typical freestanding no-shoot near a shoot target. Since we use metal stands with 1x2s as target sticks, there's a little wiggle room for the sticks to move in the stands, which allows for them to shift slightly in the wind......

Hence, the shim concept.....

[Gregory_k]

Range equipment failure includes, the displacement of paper targets

[Flexmoney]

Nik Habicht, on May 11 2009, 08:56 PM, said:

In our case, the typical freestanding no-shoot near a shoot target. Since we use metal stands with 1x2s as target sticks, there's a little wiggle room for the sticks to move in the stands, which allows for them to shift slightly in the wind......

Hence, the shim concept.....

Just curious, why a free-standing NS instead of attaching it to the shoot target and stapling it in place?


Anybody got any pictures of that for an example? is it like the NS setup at the end of this video (at the 13 second mark)? http://www.youtube.c...re=channel_page

[Nik Habicht]

Flexmoney, on May 11 2009, 10:28 PM, said:

Nik Habicht, on May 11 2009, 08:56 PM, said:

In our case, the typical freestanding no-shoot near a shoot target. Since we use metal stands with 1x2s as target sticks, there's a little wiggle room for the sticks to move in the stands, which allows for them to shift slightly in the wind......

Hence, the shim concept.....

Just curious, why a free-standing NS instead of attaching it to the shoot target and stapling it in place?


Anybody got any pictures of that for an example? is it like the NS setup at the end of this video (at the 13 second mark)? http://www.youtube.c...re=channel_page

Yes only much closer to the shooter --- for both target and no-shoot. We've been known to use free standing no-shoots to simulate just that --- targets that should not be shot in a three dimensional world......

They make for interesting stages, especially where every step of movement sees a target disappear behind a no-shoot while at the same time revealing another target behind a different no-shoot.....

[Ron Ankeny]

I too have had a no-shoot wobble into my plane of vision blocking the shoot target, only it was at a state match. Like a dope, I just leaned way over and waited a second for the no-shoot to return to rest. If that ever happens again, I think I'll rip one right through the no-shoot and into the shoot target. That should get some kind of point across...maybe even a couple.

This post has been edited by Ron Ankeny: 11 May 2009 - 08:36 PM

[hf219]

If it was my stage Nik, and you can get Vlad to post it, go ahead. Ive tried several times with no luck. Or you can wait until tommorow night when I can post it on another computer. H!

[Flexmoney]

Would we all agree that the intent was not to have the stage change for each shooter due to wind? That we'd...ideally...design stages to minimize the variation?

I hope that is a safe assumption.

Quote

We've been known to use free standing no-shoots to simulate just that --- targets that should not be shot in a three dimensional world......

I'm with you there. The challenge comes when building the stage to ensure consistency for the shooters.


And, of course, to ensure there aren't shot-throughs.

2.1.8 Target Placement – Care must be taken with the physical placement of
a paper target to prevent a “shoot through”.


I watched some video today from a recent major match. The competitor was doing some impressive shooting. On one stage, he happened to catch the edge of a NS that was placed on a shoot target. That was more than enough difference to decide the match. If that NS were to move half an inch one way vs. half an inch the other...that would have changed who won the match.


2.1.8.1 Target placement should be clearly marked on the target stands
for consistent target replacement. Target stands should be
securely fixed or their locations should be clearly marked on the
range surface.

[Nik Habicht]

You'd never want to use this approach at a major match --- although come to think of it, I've seen a few instances......

Around here wind is a constant, just like some months of rain or snow......

We're not likely to change challenges our customers enjoy, to accommodate the weather.....

....the shooter who winged the no-shoot was experienced enough, that it was a half-hearted attempt to see if he could get a chance for a Mulligan -- he was pretty certain it wouldn't happen, but was certain it wouldn't if he didn't ask.....

We are however likely to start stocking some sort of shimming material, to cut down on precisely that variation --- make the stage more wind-proof.....

[Nik Habicht]

Flexmoney, on May 12 2009, 01:04 AM, said:

2.1.8 Target Placement – Care must be taken with the physical placement of
a paper target to prevent a “shoot through”.

Yeah --- and if there's steel at that position it absolutely applies. If all the targets are paper, then no-shoots let you do some things that other vision barriers simply don't let you do.....

Flexmoney, on May 12 2009, 01:04 AM, said:

2.1.8.1 Target placement should be clearly marked on the target stands
for consistent target replacement. Target stands should be
securely fixed or their locations should be clearly marked on the
range surface.

The target didn't come off the sticks. The target stand didn't move......

[Flexmoney]

I'd be OK with shoot targets...blowing around in the wind. Call them moving targets and rock on (as long as they didn't blow behind barriers and change the target exposure).

A NS, not designed to move in a consistent manner, that changes the exposure of the shoot target that it is guarding...that's not right.

I know I wouldn't feel good about a win if the shooter I was competing against had all of the Alpha and Charlie to aim at...and a gust of wind came up and took away the Charlie area as he/she broke the shot.

[LPatterson]

All the comments about wind and only one from an area that normally sees winds in excess of 30 MPH as an every day event. Down sloping mountain winds are a real pain until you realize there is no pollution in the air because it has been blown into the Midwest and points east.

Since I live in an area that has an average 14 MPH wind, moving targets are a way of life. This morning it is already gusting to 20 MPH and we haven't had any day time warming to speak of.

[dqshooter]

slip knot, on May 11 2009, 07:54 AM, said:

The RO saw it but was new, so that is why the MD was called in.
My self, I have only been shooting for 24 years, RO/CRO 5 nationals
and countles area matches, but didn't want to make a big thing out of it, being
just a local match and all.

I would just like to make one point before eveyone jumps on this. It does not matter how many nationals, area or local matches you have ro'd. When you are a shooter you are a shooter. How many time have you heard I am an RO and thaat is no the right call during a match. There are procedure in the book to arbritrate a call. Feel free to Yell now if you like, I'm out.