[doncannon]

What should be allowed when a competitor finishes in a class yet also beats every other competitor in the next class above? I have seen this happen a few times and it is usually a competitor who either seldom or never has competed at a sanctioned match before or rarely shoots IDPA. An example is a recent State match where a competitor beat the second place shooter in his class by about 34 seconds. My opinion is that the competitor should be raised in class at that match....i.e... the class winner in the class above and then bumped if there are enough competitors per IDPA rules.

This post has been edited by doncannon: 22 April 2009 - 04:04 PM

[HiPowering Along]

doncannon, on Apr 22 2009, 07:01 PM, said:

<snip>
My opinion is that the competitor should be raised in class at that match....i.e... the class winner in the class above and then bumped if there are enough competitors per IDPA rules.

You'll have to explain that one a little better, Don - not quite getting what you're driving at....

And I told you I wasn't anywhere near your time - good match you had! Congrats!

[sigfla]

I don't get it either. Why would you wanna take the first place trophy away from the guy/girl in the class above only b/c a lower class shooter did well enough to jump in class per the rules?

[Steve J]

I've seen that situation where someone truly deserves to be bumped two classes instead of one where they would continue to sandbag for another year at least, but the rules simply don't support that. It can't be done. No reason to penalize the winner of the class above for someone else's sandbagging either.

[doncannon]

I guess what I am getting at here is that for whatever reason......some....shooters shoot a classifer way below their skills. Should we not have a specific rule in place to correct this. The only time I could see this happening is the above situation. A shooter wins his class....................BUT........................also would have one the higher class!!!!! Is this a true representation of a persons skills? did this person shoot Phenomally? maybe.....but still? The reason I bring this up is that I have seen this occurance more than once and I trust others have also. I guess we could look at the "no lower than 1 class" option again but it does not account for higher class "other discipline" shooters who rarely if ever shoot IDPA.

I have a stake....and maybe a gripe....in this cuz it has happened to me personally twice. Maybe I am biased. You folks tell me if I am way off base here.....Thats why I bring it up.

[Glock3422]

doncannon, on Apr 22 2009, 08:13 PM, said:

I guess what I am getting at here is that for whatever reason......some....shooters shoot a classifer way below their skills. Should we not have a specific rule in place to correct this. The only time I could see this happening is the above situation. A shooter wins his class....................BUT........................also would have one the higher class!!!!! Is this a true representation of a persons skills? did this person shoot Phenomally? maybe.....but still? The reason I bring this up is that I have seen this occurance more than once and I trust others have also. I guess we could look at the "no lower than 1 class" option again but it does not account for higher class "other discipline" shooters who rarely if ever shoot IDPA.

I have a stake....and maybe a gripe....in this cuz it has happened to me personally twice. Maybe I am biased. You folks tell me if I am way off base here.....Thats why I bring it up.

The problem you are describing is the difference between the classifier and the match.

The classifier is a set series of strings, with no concealment required, no particular athletic ability, no particular problem solving ability and an emphasis of accuracy over speed with penalties for extra rounds.

Matches have variable COFs, require concealment, reward athletic ability, reward problem solving ability, reward accuracy, reward speed, and allow you to shoot until you are happy.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

The classifier is over emphasized from a match perspective and matches are under emphasized from a classification perspective.

The requirement to shoot an annual classifier wastes more time and ammo than warranted for the minimal impact on active shooters. The real test is major matches.

If you are beaten at a major match, it is because someone else shot better than you did on that particular day. It has nothing to do with the classifier. You could require weekly classifiers and have the same result.

[kevinj308]

What the glock guy said.

[Joe D]

Don, I have seen a lot of "Paper Masters" never shoot in the Division that they made Master in again. The Classifier bears little semblance to a match. I have shot the Classifier three times - once in SSP, ESP and CDP. I would much rather move up by beating folks at a match.
Those that are in a lower Class, yet have the ability to shoot a Class or two higher, have to look at themselves everyday in the mirror. Wow what an accomplishment - I shoot at an Expert level, but I won that trophy as a Marksman.
There was a shooter, who will remain nameless, that won his Class at the Alabama State match last weekend. He made the comment to me after he got his trophy that his name was not on his Classification card so how would anyone know he was supposed to move up. My comment to him was "You will know". I hope he does the right thing.

[boo radley]

doncannon, on Apr 22 2009, 11:13 PM, said:

I guess what I am getting at here is that for whatever reason......some....shooters shoot a classifer way below their skills. Should we not have a specific rule in place to correct this. The only time I could see this happening is the above situation. A shooter wins his class....................BUT........................also would have one the higher class!!!!! Is this a true representation of a persons skills? did this person shoot Phenomally? maybe.....but still? The reason I bring this up is that I have seen this occurance more than once and I trust others have also. I guess we could look at the "no lower than 1 class" option again but it does not account for higher class "other discipline" shooters who rarely if ever shoot IDPA.

I have a stake....and maybe a gripe....in this cuz it has happened to me personally twice. Maybe I am biased. You folks tell me if I am way off base here.....Thats why I bring it up.

I am confused.

Shooter X is a SS class, and has a good major match beating ALL the other SS shooters in his division. Perhaps he also beat all the other EX shooters, but in any event -- his finish should ensure he's bumped to the next higher class. <shrug> If there aren't enough shooters to ensure a 'bump', then it's not much a major match.

In any event, this should self-correct given time and a major match or two. I agree with others that The Classifier doesn't necessarily equal match performance, but then we start going down the road of IDPA and logic, and rules that should be changed/modified, and it's likely to be a short and rough trip.

[Jim Watson]

Early on, we had a guy here who shot a match so well that the MD on his own sayso "double promoted" him, Marksman to Expert; as the OP seems to suggest. It was a long time before he was really competitive in Expert.

I am against any such practice.

I think if the classifier was trimmed back to where it could be included in a sanctioned match without distorting the scores and reducing the fun factor, and was REQUIRED to be in a sanctioned match, these matters would come up a lot less often. I once saw a 54 shot CoF that tested everything the present 90 does, and could reasonably make up two or three stages out of a dozen at a match.

[Jane]

Don,

I understand your frustration. I saw a similar situation a few years back at a California state match. I wound up squadded with Taran Butler, John Flentz, Barry Dueck, and some "ssp marksman" who happened to be a B-class IPSC shooter . Any surprise that guy won MM?

The US Constitution prohibits ex post facto (i.e., retroactive) laws. 'Course, I wonder how many people in Congress have ever read that document?
That's obviously only a weak analogy and not directly applicable to your situation. But if I understand your suggestion correctly - that somebody should be re-registered in a match into a higher division based on his performance in that match - I have to disagree. The idea of the class-bump system is that somebody's sandbagging days will be limited over time... not to try to correct possible mis-classifications retroactively. Can you imagine the chaos if after every match, the MD had to sit down and shuffle peoples' classifications around, postpone an awards ceremony until everything had been determined, possibly have to order additional trophies in one classification and have extras lying around in another, etc?

Jim,
I'd ask the MD where he finds a "double bump" in the rule book. I've looked back as far as the "little red book" and don't see any support for doing that... although I personally think that in a hypothetical situation where an MM beats a bunch of SS and a bunch of EX in a match, it would seem reasonable to do that. But games need to be played by a set of rules, not by what different people think the rules "should" be.

Joe,
I know that the software used to score the Alabama state match makes it easy for an MD to upload sanctioned match class bumps to the IDPA website database. Or match directors can do it manually in a couple of minutes. And any "club contact" can download shooters' classification info from that database. So perhaps even if the nameless shooter lacks integrity, when he registers for future matches his updated classification will be apparent.

[Chills1994]

I have a solution.

[Bones]

On the rules chat forum, I proposed a classifier at any level precede a match performance bump to that level - i.e. both be required - esp. to MA. and that the on-line datase be the fiunal arbiter. When there are two versions of the truth - the unverifiable paper card and the verifiable on line database - there is essentially no version of the truth.

In the end, you cannot expect everyone will play by your sense of honor - only by the rules as written.

Don, the real solution is SSR - ESP is a murky puddle to play in. You should know that by now, you've been in the water a long time.

Craig

This post has been edited by Bones: 23 April 2009 - 09:06 AM

[solaritx]

Jane,

Didn't the little red book allow for a MD to mark a card for "known ability"? That would allow for a double bump, but that was a few years ago <g>

Garry

[Jim Watson]

That is a common legend dating back to the early days of IDPA, way back in the XX century. Undoubtedly it is what got the shooter here moved up twice. But there is no provision for reclassification on "known ability" in the 1999 red rule book.
I used to shoot ATA Trap which does have a known ability clause, but seldom if ever saw it applied.

[steel1212]

You know how you correct this? Make Master and let the baggers bag. Sometimes a lower class shooter just has one heck of a run. What would bug me, and it happened to a buddy of mine at the only IDPA major I've been to, is that EXP won CDP division by A LOT!

[VegasOPM]

If that was the NV State match, I know the shooter in question. He is a USPSA "A" shooter that doesn't do very well on classifiers. The classifier is all Limited Vickers; very speed-unfriendly. Most of the stages at the NV State match were Vickers, so you can make up a mike; aka speed-friendly. Make the classifier Vickers, and a lot of USPSA guys will finish better.

[Steve J]

VegasOPM, on Apr 23 2009, 07:21 PM, said:

Make the classifier Vickers, and a lot of USPSA guys will finish better.

That defeats the purpose. Knowing how fast you can make your hits is an important skill, probably one of the most important in the real world. Remember that little lawyer that rides down range on every bullet, and it is after all supposed to be practical shooting.

[persona non grata]

You could just get rid of the classification systems. Just shoot head's up within a division. I'm tinking that the olny other thing people are sandbagging for in IDPA is STI contigency money, maybe a $15 trophy, and a bump.
I guess I could see how some people are padding their shootin resumes with their IDPA wins via sandbagging so that they can dupe people into taking CCW classes from them.
Besides that, IDPA is already set up so there aren't any pirze tables. It's all raffle/door prizes anyways. I'm wonderin if there ain't some sort of log jam effect going on with people stalling out in Expert class just hoping to win Expert and get the bump to Master. I tink most people don't want to make master by shooting a sub 88 second classifier.

Revolver shooters getting the bump at major matches. Ha! That's almost funny Bones. There ain't enough wheelies in IDPA major matches...errr... 10 or more for anyone to ever get the bump. If you are stuck on the wheel gun, then you already gotta know that the only way you're moving up is shooting ever faster classifier matches.

[Bones]

persona non grata, on Apr 23 2009, 10:07 PM, said:

Revolver shooters getting the bump at major matches. Ha! That's almost funny Bones. There ain't enough wheelies in IDPA major matches...errr... 10 or more for anyone to ever get the bump. If you are stuck on the wheel gun, then you already gotta know that the only way you're moving up is shooting ever faster classifier matches.

Really?

I moved up that way, Jerry Biggs moved up that way, Curt Nichols moved up that way - well, you get the point.

You've looked at the last (3) S&W Indoor or Outdoor National match SSR attendances, right? Your statement is inconsistent with that data. One person in each Classification in SSR got bumped at S&W in February.

Craig

[Greg Bell]

I'm classed SSP/EX as the result of a match bump where I beat a field of 25 by 15 seconds. I just suck at shooting the classifier I still haven't shot one at SSP/EX level. I came within 2 seconds once, until I actually practice 20yd shooting I never will.

[Gregg K]

persona non grata, on Apr 23 2009, 08:07 PM, said:

Revolver shooters getting the bump at major matches. Ha! That's almost funny Bones. There ain't enough wheelies in IDPA major matches...errr... 10 or more for anyone to ever get the bump. If you are stuck on the wheel gun, then you already gotta know that the only way you're moving up is shooting ever faster classifier matches.

I'm here to tell you that it can happen. I was one of the three SSR shooters that got bumped at the S&W Winter Nationals. Granted that it's not as common with the wheel gun but you can seek out matches with large revolver participation.

[JasonK]

Steve J, on Apr 23 2009, 09:03 PM, said:

VegasOPM, on Apr 23 2009, 07:21 PM, said:

Make the classifier Vickers, and a lot of USPSA guys will finish better.

That defeats the purpose. Knowing how fast you can make your hits is an important skill, probably one of the most important in the real world. Remember that little lawyer that rides down range on every bullet, and it is after all supposed to be practical shooting.

If that were a core tenet of IDPA then all stages would be Limited Vickers.

[Steve J]

JasonK, on Apr 23 2009, 10:20 PM, said:

Steve J, on Apr 23 2009, 09:03 PM, said:

VegasOPM, on Apr 23 2009, 07:21 PM, said:

Make the classifier Vickers, and a lot of USPSA guys will finish better.

That defeats the purpose. Knowing how fast you can make your hits is an important skill, probably one of the most important in the real world. Remember that little lawyer that rides down range on every bullet, and it is after all supposed to be practical shooting.

If that were a core tenet of IDPA then all stages would be Limited Vickers.

Nope. You've missed the point. Vickers allows you to shoot as many rounds as you need to neutralize the target, not spray misses and pray. The scoring system itself penalizes misses more than the Comstock system as it should be. Limited Vickers refines that even more.

[Jane]

solaritx, on Apr 23 2009, 01:36 PM, said:

Jane,

Didn't the little red book allow for a MD to mark a card for "known ability"? That would allow for a double bump, but that was a few years ago <g>

Garry

Garry,

I have an electronic copy of the LRB which one of these days I'll convert to PDF and post as a reference (the LGB is already on my website).

A quick scan through the LRB for the word "known" doesn't yield any hits.