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Best Glock 17 Airsoft?


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#1 Duane Thomas

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:16 PM

Did a search and read some threads but can't find exactly the info I want. I'm working on an article on building up a gun battery/practice regimen, for practice now that ammo costs, and primer costs/availability have just gotten insane, that combines dry fire with Airsoft and a .22 conversion unit. Not, of course, that we will abandon dry fire, just scale back the number of live rounds for less costly and more easily available alternatives. All this, natch, will be in service of my Glock 17 carry/match gun.

Questions:

(1) Who, or what company, makes the best Glock 17 Airsoft? I've had experience with some of the cheap all-plastic Airsofts, and that is NOT what interests me.

(2) I've read good things about Manny Braggs' Airsoft work. What exactly does Manny do to the Airsoft guns he turns out? What makes them special?

(3) Is it possible to run an Airsoft G17 replica with a New York Trigger, or something that would give equivalent weight and quality trigger pulls?

(4) I have heard there are now timers that can pick up the sound of the Airsoft gun firing. I would assume this would require you dedicate that timer specifically for Airsoft training, that you'd get a serious problem with the timer picking up echoes as false shots if you used that timer for live fire practice with the sensitivity set that high, and that it would be a pain to have to constantly reset and fine tune the timer every time you went from Airsoft to live ammo or vice versa. True?

(5) For the .22 conversion unit, I've heard really good things about the Advantage Arms unit. Anyone got any feedback on this unit? Any other unit you'd recommend? Why?

Thanks in advance for any info provided.
Pride and fear are emotions, which hope for an outcome. Outcomes take your attention from the present, where the shooting happens, to the future. It is totally impossible to do anything in the future, because it hasn't happened yet. The key to shooting your best is to be present as the witness of the shooting. Do not judge, do not give yourself anything to live up to. We can only shoot as well as we have trained ourselves to shoot. To try to shoot only induces stress. Be content with your current ability. And accumulate practice to improve that ability. Consolidate, build strength where you feel weakness. We cannot raise our ability until we accept our current limitations. Practice dissolves limitations. Matches simply define where the current limits exist. The game of shooting is all about redefining our limits.
- Sam

Amateurs do it til they get it right. Professionals do it til they can't get it wrong.

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- Paul "Bear" Bryant

"The only reason why Everest is the highest mountain ever climbed is because it's the highest. If there was one higher, I bet there'd be people trying to climb it."
- Jack Barnes

#2 dbmonster

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 02:28 AM

Duane look for Tokyo Marui brand. Check this link, http://www.filairsof...ead.php?t=41499 Practical Airsoft Pistol is now an event in our local IPSC/PPSA for same reason that you mention above and i quote "for practice now that ammo costs, and primer costs/availability have just gotten insane" Check this thread :http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1015350
This airsoft pistol are almost exact replica of our guns in weight and slide action
Hope this help.
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#3 Duane Thomas

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 03:46 AM

It did. Thanks. :)
Pride and fear are emotions, which hope for an outcome. Outcomes take your attention from the present, where the shooting happens, to the future. It is totally impossible to do anything in the future, because it hasn't happened yet. The key to shooting your best is to be present as the witness of the shooting. Do not judge, do not give yourself anything to live up to. We can only shoot as well as we have trained ourselves to shoot. To try to shoot only induces stress. Be content with your current ability. And accumulate practice to improve that ability. Consolidate, build strength where you feel weakness. We cannot raise our ability until we accept our current limitations. Practice dissolves limitations. Matches simply define where the current limits exist. The game of shooting is all about redefining our limits.
- Sam

Amateurs do it til they get it right. Professionals do it til they can't get it wrong.

"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters."
- Paul "Bear" Bryant

"The only reason why Everest is the highest mountain ever climbed is because it's the highest. If there was one higher, I bet there'd be people trying to climb it."
- Jack Barnes

#4 nphd2000

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 05:39 AM

Damn! Where can I get one of those Caspian Glock "open" airsoft guns? It would be almost an exact replica of my 17 open steel gun.

#5 Rob D

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 12:26 PM

(2) I've read good things about Manny Braggs' Airsoft work. What exactly does Manny do to the Airsoft guns he turns out? What makes them special?


I don't know that Manny does anything to them at all. When I was shopping for an airsoft, Manny was the only dealer I could find that seemed trustworthy and had any kind of product information on the website. A lot of the airsoft sites had little or no information about their products, and I was weary of ordering something I couldn't read much about from somebody over seas. There may be better places to order from now. I've had great luck with the G17 clone I bought from Manny, FWIW.

(4) I have heard there are now timers that can pick up the sound of the Airsoft gun firing. I would assume this would require you dedicate that timer specifically for Airsoft training, that you'd get a serious problem with the timer picking up echoes as false shots if you used that timer for live fire practice with the sensitivity set that high, and that it would be a pain to have to constantly reset and fine tune the timer every time you went from Airsoft to live ammo or vice versa. True?


I have an old CED6000 that picks up my airsoft just fine. I just have to keep a tiny flathead screwdriver in my range bag so I can turn the sensitivity down when I shoot my real glocks.

Good luck! It's a lot of fun to train with airsoft. I like that I can be sitting on my couch at 1AM and decide to go practice on a whim without bothering anybody.
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#6 kevin c

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 01:18 PM

As best I can tell, Manny Bragg doesn't work on the G17 airsofts he sells. What he did for me was replace the unit when I mentioned that the fixed sights were not on the POI. He also replaced a double feeding magazine.

His unit (metal slide, plastic receiver) is not a top of the line model - it is reasonably priced, and he stands by it with good service as a vendor, but not as the manufacturer. Those were the plusses for me, and my unit has worked well (though the replacement still didn't hit to POA unitl I filed the front sight, which is not removable, and the weird rear sight assembly precludes the use of aftermarket sights).

Higher end Glock airsofts like the Tokyo Marui, depending on the model, will accept aftermarket sights, but I'm not sure if that would include the heavy metal versions we'd put on a Production gun. The light Glock adjustable is one thing, but a Dawson is a fair amount of weight for a propane actuated recoil mechanism to sling around. Have to ask the vendor.

My unit shoots 2 to 3" groups at 30 feet. It has heavy metal magazines with plastic feed lips, so I do not do reloading drills with them unless I'm dropping them into a well padded box at waist height and from a static position. The receiver does not look to be modifiable, so, unlike a 22 conversion, you won't be able to alter the trigger at all. I think that'd be true of all the airsoft blowback pistols, since the trigger is just to feed gas, not fire a center fire cartridge.

I'd heard that the CED timers with adjustable sensitivity will pick up an airsoft. I got a 7000, and even with the sensitivity set at max it won't pick up the shot unless the timer is right next to the final shot. That means using the wrist band, which I really dislike, or setting the timer up at the final shot location, activating it on delay, and then going to the start position. Doable, but not quite as convenient as might be.

Gotta go - more on my AA later...

ETA: It fits my DOH

Edited by kevin c, 22 April 2009 - 09:28 AM.

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#7 kevin c

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 06:12 PM

As for the AA, I love mine.

Coming just as an upper, you can do anything you like to your own lower. The upper has std Glock sights and are replaceable.

Mags are plastic and hold 10 rounds, They work well, but are not designed for abusive drills - the feed lips are too fragile. I broke two mags in one session doing reload drills (the damage was to the feed lips on insertion, though the mags are still usable). A buddy of mine dropped one onto a gravel range and busted his up to the point where it is nonfunctional.

They're picky on ammo. AA specifically recommends against Federal ammo, high velocity or not. Mine runs well on MiniMags, but won't cycle most std vel ammo. Golden Bullet 40 and 36 gr bulk pack from Remington works fairly well, with only some extraction problems I attribute to the occasional underpowered round, and the occasional dud. Even with the cheap stuff I can kick shotgun hulls around on the berm from 15 yards plus.

AA used to sell a target model, which, IIRC, had a funky looking nonreciprocating slide and a peculiar looking sight set up. It isn't on their website right now. If you mention AA, Duane, you might want to point out that buyers of used kits need to know which they are buying.

Dryfiring is not recommended.

eta:

The slide is a smidge wider than the std small frame Glock slide. It bound up in my DOH until I loosened the adjustment screws.

Edited by kevin c, 22 April 2009 - 09:29 AM.

MASTER class, one of these days...
 

"Remember that thing in the middle of the target? It's called the A zone. Try to hit it, more than just occasionally..."  Saul Kirsch

Being unconquerable lies within yourself - Sun-Tzu


#8 01G8R

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 09:07 AM

Airsoft

I have a KWA/KSC G34 airsoft with plastic slide and frame. It functions properly and has held up very well. Just like Kevin C I don't do reloads with the airsoft. Without the mag in the airsoft the weight of the pistol is negligible and that doesn't work for me to practice reloads. The recoil very light. I find myself lining up a good sight picture on my first shot, but the sights don't return naturally like shooting the real gun. I think this is to be expected with the plastic slide. I would like to try the metal slide version. My only real complaint is that it doesn't fit in my DOH holster. It is too wide and I haven't had the time to modify it.

AA 22 Conversion

This works as advertised on my stock 17 frame with the recommended ammo. Doesn't work well on my 35 limited gun frame because of the connector with the over travel stop. I could cut down the over travel stop on the connector a little more and then it will work, but that messes up the trigger feel on my 35. I think what I will do is put an aftermarket connector in the 17 and cut it so it works with the AA Conversion Kit. 10 round mags are a PITA and at $25 per mag they are pricey. Hope this helps.

Edited by 01G8R, 22 April 2009 - 09:08 AM.


#9 chp5

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 12:37 PM

Duane,

I have a I have a KWA/KSC G17 and G19 with the metal slide. I've had excellent luck with mine. Paid around $100, maybe a little less. I think they're hard to find now - something about a dispute with Glock is the scuttlebutt. I've used mine extensively for close up FoF work. They work well and sting nicely with light clothing. A day of FoF will leave you looking like you have chicken pox.

I also have a AA .22 kit for the G17/22/etc frame. I love it. Runs great with ammo it likes.
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#10 Duane Thomas

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 04:45 PM

Thanks for all the info, guys.
Pride and fear are emotions, which hope for an outcome. Outcomes take your attention from the present, where the shooting happens, to the future. It is totally impossible to do anything in the future, because it hasn't happened yet. The key to shooting your best is to be present as the witness of the shooting. Do not judge, do not give yourself anything to live up to. We can only shoot as well as we have trained ourselves to shoot. To try to shoot only induces stress. Be content with your current ability. And accumulate practice to improve that ability. Consolidate, build strength where you feel weakness. We cannot raise our ability until we accept our current limitations. Practice dissolves limitations. Matches simply define where the current limits exist. The game of shooting is all about redefining our limits.
- Sam

Amateurs do it til they get it right. Professionals do it til they can't get it wrong.

"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters."
- Paul "Bear" Bryant

"The only reason why Everest is the highest mountain ever climbed is because it's the highest. If there was one higher, I bet there'd be people trying to climb it."
- Jack Barnes

#11 Duane Thomas

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 04:12 PM

Does anyone have a telephone # for Manny Bragg? Also, a telephone # for Advantage Arms, ideally with the name of a POC who's used to dealing with writers?
Pride and fear are emotions, which hope for an outcome. Outcomes take your attention from the present, where the shooting happens, to the future. It is totally impossible to do anything in the future, because it hasn't happened yet. The key to shooting your best is to be present as the witness of the shooting. Do not judge, do not give yourself anything to live up to. We can only shoot as well as we have trained ourselves to shoot. To try to shoot only induces stress. Be content with your current ability. And accumulate practice to improve that ability. Consolidate, build strength where you feel weakness. We cannot raise our ability until we accept our current limitations. Practice dissolves limitations. Matches simply define where the current limits exist. The game of shooting is all about redefining our limits.
- Sam

Amateurs do it til they get it right. Professionals do it til they can't get it wrong.

"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters."
- Paul "Bear" Bryant

"The only reason why Everest is the highest mountain ever climbed is because it's the highest. If there was one higher, I bet there'd be people trying to climb it."
- Jack Barnes

#12 badchad

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 05:12 PM

(5) For the .22 conversion unit, I've heard really good things about the Advantage Arms unit. Anyone got any feedback on this unit? Any other unit you'd recommend? Why?

Mine G17 conversion jamms up a lot, with my experience fairly similar to Kevins. I wouldn't trust my life with it, but in spite of the drawbacks it allows for cheap enough practice that I still use it regularly. The AA conversion for my Glock 23 works a lot better. I imagine because the slide is lighter.

#13 S&W627shooter

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 05:41 PM

I would like to try the metal slide version. My only real complaint is that it doesn't fit in my DOH holster. It is too wide and I haven't had the time to modify it.


I had the G17 Metal Slide and Barrel version, and I had the same problem with the holster until I took an old Uncle Mike's and loosened it until the gun fit. Mine came from Hong Kong (eBay) and had all the Glock markings intact. They were covered with a rubber cement-like stuff that scraped off easily. Other than the lightly painted red tip on the barrel, it was virtually indistinguishable from my real Glock! LOTS OF FUN!

Edited by S&W627shooter, 29 April 2009 - 05:42 PM.


#14 01G8R

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 07:50 AM

As I mentioned earlier my Airsoft wouldn't fir my DOH holster. I decided to fix that last night. Turns out that the area that was keeping it from fully seating in the holster was the rail under the dust cover. I just shaved that rail down on both sides with a razor blade. Fits just like my real G35 in the holster now.

#15 rupie

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Posted 01 May 2009 - 09:06 PM

do those glock airsoft guns have removable pins for a optics mount like a carver? I would really like to mont a aimpoint on a air soft gun. http://bb-enterprise.biz/item3225.ctlg

Edited by rupie, 01 May 2009 - 11:28 PM.


#16 Duane Thomas

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 10:30 PM

Got in touch with Manny Bragg today; things are looking good on the Airsoft front.

Does anyone have a phone # for Advantage Arms?
Pride and fear are emotions, which hope for an outcome. Outcomes take your attention from the present, where the shooting happens, to the future. It is totally impossible to do anything in the future, because it hasn't happened yet. The key to shooting your best is to be present as the witness of the shooting. Do not judge, do not give yourself anything to live up to. We can only shoot as well as we have trained ourselves to shoot. To try to shoot only induces stress. Be content with your current ability. And accumulate practice to improve that ability. Consolidate, build strength where you feel weakness. We cannot raise our ability until we accept our current limitations. Practice dissolves limitations. Matches simply define where the current limits exist. The game of shooting is all about redefining our limits.
- Sam

Amateurs do it til they get it right. Professionals do it til they can't get it wrong.

"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters."
- Paul "Bear" Bryant

"The only reason why Everest is the highest mountain ever climbed is because it's the highest. If there was one higher, I bet there'd be people trying to climb it."
- Jack Barnes

#17 jg-rider

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 10:05 AM

Got in touch with Manny Bragg today; things are looking good on the Airsoft front.

Does anyone have a phone # for Advantage Arms?


Here you go, 661-257-2290. I hope you find them more cordial after your purchase, than I have in the past.
Can you give a web sight or a phone # for Many Bragg?

#18 Calmwater

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 11:51 AM

http://www.mannyusa.com/
a61461 So you all can see I don't know what I'm talking about........

#19 Duane Thomas

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 07:58 PM

Here you go, 661-257-2290.

Thanks, Joihn.
Pride and fear are emotions, which hope for an outcome. Outcomes take your attention from the present, where the shooting happens, to the future. It is totally impossible to do anything in the future, because it hasn't happened yet. The key to shooting your best is to be present as the witness of the shooting. Do not judge, do not give yourself anything to live up to. We can only shoot as well as we have trained ourselves to shoot. To try to shoot only induces stress. Be content with your current ability. And accumulate practice to improve that ability. Consolidate, build strength where you feel weakness. We cannot raise our ability until we accept our current limitations. Practice dissolves limitations. Matches simply define where the current limits exist. The game of shooting is all about redefining our limits.
- Sam

Amateurs do it til they get it right. Professionals do it til they can't get it wrong.

"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters."
- Paul "Bear" Bryant

"The only reason why Everest is the highest mountain ever climbed is because it's the highest. If there was one higher, I bet there'd be people trying to climb it."
- Jack Barnes

#20 MemphisMechanic

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Posted 14 May 2009 - 08:41 PM

My KSC Glock 17 (metal slide/barrel) arrived today. It's already got 300-400 rounds through it. :D

It's a blast.

I bought a 50pack of 50% scale IPSC targets from CED, marketed specifically for airsoft use. Excellent decision.

The gun is *taller* at the muzzle (bottom of rail rail to top of slide) than a real Glock so, even though it's slide/frame are narrower according to my calipers, it ain't going to fit in a good kydex holster. A cheapie uncle mikes with the retention screws backed off is working great, though.

I set up a small stage with things I suck at - really tight first shots (noshoot covering half the Alpha at 7 yards on a baby target is TIGHT) and shooting on-the-move followed IMMEDIATELY by a bank of targets shot static around a wall (using IDPA cover).

Shot a video clip of this that I'll post later. It's great to shoot the same thing three times, watch several runs to see where you're burning time, and go back and fix them. This is the kind of thing that takes lots of time and ammo to practice live-fire, and that you really can't do with dryfire.

Draw practice is much more fun than using dryfire, too. I wasn't being nearly as honest about meeting my par-times and calling Alphas in dryfire as I thought. I was loose on the sights, and the great thing about airsoft is that it shows up instantly as holes in the C-zone.

So far, I'm happy. But I'm not going to shoot it any more until the Missouri State IDPA match has ended this Sunday night. Light 9mm loads feel like cannon blasts if you get used to an airsoft gun, so I need to go shoot 50-100 rounds tomorrow on lunch break, and stay away from the toy gun until the match is over.



[EDIT] Oh, and the trigger is about 2-2.5 pounds at a guess. However, there's a spring right there on top which looks easy to replace, looks like a miniature Glock trigger spring, and it appears to work opposite of the real thing... It's extended as the trigger is pulled. I'll try cutting down a Glock trigger spring and sticking it in there. I'd like to get the pull weight up some - especially since my 34 has stock internals, and is probably closer to five pounds than three.

Edited by MemphisMechanic, 14 May 2009 - 08:44 PM.

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#21 DVC247

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 09:43 AM

I just wrote that Airsoft article for Front Sight, and FYI everyone, directly from the distributer that gave me the airsoft "Glock 34' for the article, Glock has served a cease and desist order on everyone and anyone making airsoft versions of their guns. Get 'em while you can, because they soon will be collector's items.

#22 Graham Smith

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 01:20 PM

I just wrote that Airsoft article for Front Sight, and FYI everyone, directly from the distributer that gave me the airsoft "Glock 34' for the article, Glock has served a cease and desist order on everyone and anyone making airsoft versions of their guns. Get 'em while you can, because they soon will be collector's items.

The only web source I could find on a quick check of this indicated that this is a trademark infringement case. Which could mean that manufactures have to stop using the Glock logo on their products.
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#23 Mike H

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 08:05 PM

Duane, did AA provide a ship eta. Everyone I can find who carries their .22 slide says 3-4 months out. I'm kicking myself for selling mine

#24 Duane Thomas

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Posted 09 July 2009 - 09:06 PM

Nope, I was told there was no way they could break one loose in time for my article, so I went ahead and did it solely on Airsoft. That's okay, that just means I can do a separate article on the AA later. :)
Pride and fear are emotions, which hope for an outcome. Outcomes take your attention from the present, where the shooting happens, to the future. It is totally impossible to do anything in the future, because it hasn't happened yet. The key to shooting your best is to be present as the witness of the shooting. Do not judge, do not give yourself anything to live up to. We can only shoot as well as we have trained ourselves to shoot. To try to shoot only induces stress. Be content with your current ability. And accumulate practice to improve that ability. Consolidate, build strength where you feel weakness. We cannot raise our ability until we accept our current limitations. Practice dissolves limitations. Matches simply define where the current limits exist. The game of shooting is all about redefining our limits.
- Sam

Amateurs do it til they get it right. Professionals do it til they can't get it wrong.

"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters."
- Paul "Bear" Bryant

"The only reason why Everest is the highest mountain ever climbed is because it's the highest. If there was one higher, I bet there'd be people trying to climb it."
- Jack Barnes

#25 GForceLizard

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Posted 07 August 2009 - 11:38 AM

I have a Tokyo Mauri G17. The TM has a plastic slide and you're suppose to use 134A gas that has less power. I don't have a source for 134A and ran it with propane. The green gas and propane are too strong. Broke it 3 times. The last time it broke the front of the slide clear off. I've had no problems with my metal guns. The metal ones are WE-Tech. Nothing against TM. It was a great gun while it lasted. They are serious when they tell you to use 134A on a gun with a plastic slide.

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