[JKSNIPER]

Before guys go on a LEO bashing frenzy be aware that guys like myself and probably every other LEO here think this is a BAD idea and would NEVER do such a thing.
On my other favorite forum which is for LEO and Mil snipers (Snipersonline) it is being discussed as we speak.
I am good friends with the owners and head instructors for 2 major training orgs for LEO/Mil snipers and they do NOT advocate this sort of training.
Stuff like this makes us cringe when we read it.
(Sigh)
I know G-Man Bart is reading this and shaking his head saying "WTF were they thinking about?"
JK

Va. sheriff's sniper training raises controversy
By Amanda Codispoti
Roanoke Times

ROANOKE, Va. — The Roanoke sheriff first defended and then distanced herself Friday from a controversial sniper training exercise that involved putting officers downrange during live fire.
When first questioned by reporters at a hastily called news conference, Sheriff Octavia Johnson said that the instructor was highly qualified, and that she may permit that type of training again, despite her earlier acknowledgment that it had violated department policy.

But when later pressed on whether the training would take place again, she said it would not.

"We are not going to be shooting downrange. It is not our policy," she said.

She called the news conference after The Roanoke Times published an article Friday outlining an October training session at the Dixie Caverns firing range. Johnson had declined to answer questions about the training before the story published.

During the voluntary training, officers took turns standing a few feet from a target as another officer, a football field away, took aim and fired. No one was injured.
Roanoke County owns the shooting range and for the past decade has had an agreement that allows city law enforcement officers to use both it and the adjacent driving range.

County officials this week said they were shocked by the account of that training session, which they maintain was organized by Johnson over their objections.

Now, the county wants to ban city officers from using the range. City and county officials plan to talk about the matter at a future meeting.

Johnson disputes that the county objected to the training and said Friday that the training was approved by the board of the Regional Firearms Range.

Lt. David McMillan, who represents the Roanoke County Police Department on the board, said Friday that he and the county sheriff's representative voted against the training. Representatives from the city police and sheriff's office also sit on the board.

Johnson said she was unaware of the sniper exercise until Roanoke County police Chief Ray Lavinder heard about it and came to her office to talk about it two weeks later.

"I was rather surprised," she said.

But when asked if she would allow it to happen again, she responded: "We would have to look close at the whole situation as to what's going on. I mean, they are trained to be snipers, and Mr. Castle [the trainer] is an expert and I feel that the snipers know what they are able and capable of doing."

But later, asked again if she would permit such training to occur in the future, she changed her stance, saying it would not be allowed.

Paul Castle, who led the exercise, has done training at the Dixie Caverns range several times. He was paid $3,500 for last fall's five-day session, which was attended by officers from seven agencies, including nine officers from the city sheriff's office and two from the Roanoke Police Department.

Johnson said she did not know whether Castle has done this exercise with city or county officers in previous training.

But an officer at the news conference who had trained with Castle before the October session said that last year was the first time it had happened.

When Roanoke County police tried to look at footage of the training from surveillance cameras, they discovered that some of the cameras had been pointed toward the sky or disconnected, Lavinder said. He does not know who tampered with the cameras and said it may have been a coincidence.

Lt. Chuck Ferguson of the Roanoke Sheriff's Office said Lavinder's statement was politically motivated, adding that the cameras are inoperable.

"Why would we intentionally tamper with cameras that were inoperable? This was an obvious political move to make it appear that we intentionally tampered with cameras."

Ferguson also said that the cameras were not on the range but in the shoot house, a building used to train for hostage and similar situations.

Lavinder said Friday that the cameras were on the range officer's towers, and that both those and the shoot house cameras are operable.

Several members of the Roanoke Sheriff's Office Tactical Team were at the news conference, which was held in front of the city jail, and some defended the training.

"A sniper shot is something entirely different than anything else we do," said Ferguson, the head of the team. "That's why it's trained differently."

But even John Gnagey, the executive director of the National Tactical Officers Association, said Friday that he does not know of anyone in the industry who does that type of training.

"The liability issue would just be huge," he said.

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[Ben Stoeger]

Even if there is some limited value to that sort of training (not really sure what it would be), I can't see it being worth the shitstorm.

[barney88pdc]

I am not going to advocate the idea but anyone with decient marksman ship and quality equipment can consistantly hit ON A BAD DAY 1" 5 round groups at 100 yards. This is not pistol practice at 100 yards. I know I am just opening myself up for a bashing here and should keep my typing to myself but after the instructor proved his skills I would not be hesitant to go down range.

Now my question it WHY. There would need to be a good reason. And I cant think of one.

This post has been edited by barney88pdc: 13 April 2009 - 09:35 PM

[Fullauto_Shooter]

This vaguely reminds me of the old Army Infiltration Course (ran it during Basic Combat Training in 86). M60 machine guns on locked T&E devices fired tracers a few feet overhead as we crawled throught he mud under concertina wire. All the while, our Drill Sergeants threw HG simulators into bunkers alongside the infil lanes. Really sucked at the time, but makes a pretty good story now.

[G-ManBart]

JK,

You're right....I was shaking my head as I read that article

There are some organizations that do live fire with good guys right next to the targets, but it's on a whole different level from what this training was about.

If I were ever held hostage at gunpoint I'd try like heck to tell one of my sniper buddies to take the shot because I KNOW they'd make it 100 out of 100 times. Would I want to have them shoot a baseball out of my hand at 100yds even though I know they could do it with equal certainty?....not particularly

[Shawn Knight]

I am reminded of this picture...

[big_kahuna]

JKSNIPER, on Apr 13 2009, 09:10 PM, said:

... But when asked if she would allow it to happen again, she responded: "We would have to look close at the whole situation as to what's going on. I mean, they are trained to be snipers, and Mr. Castle [the trainer] is an expert and I feel that the snipers know what they are able and capable of doing."

... Paul Castle, who led the exercise, has done training at the Dixie Caverns range several times. He was paid $3,500 for last fall's five-day session, which was attended by officers from seven agencies, including nine officers from the city sheriff's office and two from the Roanoke Police Department.

Johnson said she did not know whether Castle has done this exercise with city or county officers in previous training.

But an officer at the news conference who had trained with Castle before the October session said that last year was the first time it had happened.

I cannot imagine why you would allow friendlies downrange during livefire training. Fratricide in combat is bad enough... but to risk it in training? Goes against everything I have ever been taught.

Paul Castle... I seem to recall that name tied to some controversial tacti-ninja shooting system that he will only teach to military and LEO personnel (apparently it is forbidden knowledge for civilians).... I think he was British, or at least had the accent... Am I thinking of the right guy?

[smokshwn]

Pretty hard to know for sure but it sounds as if they may have been training sniper initiated entries. It may seem unconventional from most competitive/recreational shooting perspective but it is a legitimate tactic to put in a teams toolbox.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

big_kahuna, on Apr 14 2009, 12:20 AM, said:

JKSNIPER, on Apr 13 2009, 09:10 PM, said:

... But when asked if she would allow it to happen again, she responded: "We would have to look close at the whole situation as to what's going on. I mean, they are trained to be snipers, and Mr. Castle [the trainer] is an expert and I feel that the snipers know what they are able and capable of doing."

... Paul Castle, who led the exercise, has done training at the Dixie Caverns range several times. He was paid $3,500 for last fall's five-day session, which was attended by officers from seven agencies, including nine officers from the city sheriff's office and two from the Roanoke Police Department.

Johnson said she did not know whether Castle has done this exercise with city or county officers in previous training.

But an officer at the news conference who had trained with Castle before the October session said that last year was the first time it had happened.

I cannot imagine why you would allow friendlies downrange during livefire training. Fratricide in combat is bad enough... but to risk it in training? Goes against everything I have ever been taught.

Paul Castle... I seem to recall that name tied to some controversial tacti-ninja shooting system that he will only teach to military and LEO personnel (apparently it is forbidden knowledge for civilians).... I think he was British, or at least had the accent... Am I thinking of the right guy?

This isn't the "Contact" Guy is it? I'm sure most of you remember the videos where the "tacticool" students practiced gymnastic tumbling exercises before shooting slow, poorly aimed shots at the threat target. CONTACT!!

[Viggen]

At least the county officials are showing some sense by at least talking about banning officers from the range - maybe that will get the attention of the the necessary officials in the department.

[dcarter]

Hey, I will donate one of my supervisors if they need a new "hostage".

[Shawn Knight]

dcarter, on Apr 13 2009, 10:28 PM, said:

Hey, I will donate one of my supervisors if they need a new "hostage".

I could suggest a few of those too...

[Jake Di Vita]

Good for team building trust if you ask me.

That's about it though.

[Kyle O]

Oh My Jesus.

[GentlemanJim]

I guess one could say lots of things about this

Its just not too bright!
Jim

[XRe]

Paul Castle - http://sabretactical.com/ - inventor of "Center Axis Relock" (aka, the "Tactical Two-Step", as a buddy of mine calls it, after watching his vids.... ).

BTW, judging by his instructor fee (ie, how low it is), I'd say they got the level of training they paid for

This post has been edited by XRe: 14 April 2009 - 07:30 AM

[big_kahuna]

Yep, that's the guy I was thinking of. Even at his "bargain" prices, I think he overcharged them.

[Franklin D Wolverton]

The only reason I can think to do this is to add pressure to the shooter. He's trying to get them into the idea of shooting with friendlies in the area. Most times when an Urban Sniper is going to take a shot, it's going to be a hostage situation, and there will be friendlies within feet (if not inches) of the target.

Having said that... I still don't condone this training. The "instructor" leading this training obviously thought that he needed to add the pressure of close in friendlies, so that they were less afraid to take the shot when the time came. Granted... you can't "simulate" the pressure, but you can simulate the shot. There was no reason (in my mind) to have someone standing next to the target.

If the shooter doesn't have the mental makeup to take the shot in a real situation, then this training did nothing to change that. Granted... he didn't want to hit his buddy, and that adds a little pressure... but it still in no way simulates (or adds any reality to) the situation. The target is still stationary, and more than likely a paper target.

Most people when they think of snipers think of the Carlos Hathcock type of shots. 800-1500 yards, aim center mass. The target is (most of the time) unaware that he is being targeted, and therefore may be standing around smoking a cigarette, talking to a buddy, sitting in a chair, ect. The shooter has more time to get situated, get the heart rate down, control his breathing, get his natural respiratory pause, slow steady trigger squeeze, ect.

An Urban Hostage situation is completely different. The target is highly agitated, and knows that someone is going to take a shot (whether he knows about the sniper or not). The shots are a lot closer in (usually 50-100 yards). If the target has a hostage, you have (in affect) a no-shoot in front of a shoot target. The target is more than likely moving in an erratic method, and the shooter is aiming for a target much smaller. In a hostage situation, wounding usually isn't an option. Wounding the target can cause an involuntary (or even a voluntary) shot by the target on the hostage. The shooter has to make a split second decision to take the shot, usually not in the idea situation. He may only see his target for a second or two, get his sights in there, and pull the trigger. He doesn't always have the time to "get it together."

These are two completely different types of shooting situation, and it sounds to me like this "instructor" was trying to train for Urban situations by using long range tactics. This is piss poor training methods in my opinion.

Frnak

[Pittbug]

A long time ago, perhaps 15 years ago, I watched a documentary about British SAS training. They did a team building/trust exercise, where they entered a room with 2 targets, and a buddy between them. They were in full gear, with gas masks and full auto mp5s. Not sure if that method of training is still being used now.

[Pat Harrison]

Pittbug, on Apr 14 2009, 01:57 PM, said:

A long time ago, perhaps 15 years ago, I watched a documentary about British SAS training. They did a team building/trust exercise, where they entered a room with 2 targets, and a buddy between them. They were in full gear, with gas masks and full auto mp5s. Not sure if that method of training is still being used now.

Members of Parliment, Maggie Thatcher and the Royals have taken part in this, supposedly thats how Pricess Di's hair do got changed to a shorter style after a flash bang burned some off. Been documented from different sources. Delta supposedly does the same thing, however no one from the gov't takes part....

[Sutemi]

I was involved in a pistol training class where students were encouraged but not required to go downrange and hold a target stand about three feet to one side while another student shot at it from about seven yards. The (dubious) reason given was to "become familiar with what if feels like to be downrange from the muzzle flash/blast." I trusted the other students not to miss and hit me but I didn't do it for three reasons: 1)I got a picture in my head of some freak accident occuring and getting shot and my wife saying, "he was doing WHAT?!" 2) there was an element of peer pressure to the whole thing, and my automatic response to peer pressure is to resist it, and 3) with apologies to all the fine members of Polish extraction, it sounded too much like the punchline to a Polish joke.

What it comes down to is that however miniscule the risk, if something untoward were to happen, I'd be the laughing stock of this and every shooting forum in the world.

[Pat Harrison]

I think I posted somewhere else here about the time I was helping on a movie set and they wanted to put a cameraman down range of me with live ammo....

[JKSNIPER]

Anyone thinking tis might have some value to it should visit the NTOA's website.
You can access their officer training deaths statistics without being a member.
The accidents that have resulted in deaths are all across the board from the rural multi agency teams to highly respected orgs with mega training like FBI HRT.
I knew an SAS guy a while back and he related to me how they accidentally would (on average) kill one member of the service in their shoot house every year.
Mistakes being made, guys not concentrating on their assignment, etc...
ANYONE can have an accident.
Think of all the members here who practice so dilligently and then tell their "DQ" stories.

Too much opportunity for Murphy to step in and kill one man and ruin the life and career of another.
JK

[Genghis]

Eric Haney wrote about similar training in Inside Delta Force. When the trainees begin this stage of training, they are brought into a room in the shoot house. While they're milling around, they notice dummies scattered throughout the classroom. Then some of the instructors burst in and in a few seconds, place a couple of neat holes in each dummy. By the end of this stage of training, the trainees go through the same exercise both in the role of shooters and as bystanders. This was one of the most striking sequences in the book. It brought home the fact that these guys are Olympic-class athletes with automatic weapons.

This training was depicted in one episode of The Unit (in which Haney is a writer, producer, and technical advisor). One of the operators lost his concentration and grazed a colleague with a bullet.

I'd guess the Delta Force operators have a slightly higher level of skill than the guys in this story, though. At some level of skill this kind of training might make sense, but not for mere mortals.

[kevin c]

I attended a civilian tactical course taught by a well known three gunner of just a few years back. Day One all the students were ushered by the asst. instructors into a shoot house and herded to one side of a room. The main instructor then did a suprise dynamic entry and engaged a series of targets live fire at the end of the room, shooting past the students on one side.

Nobody was three feet to the side and at the same distance down range as the targets, though...