[mjoy64]

OK... so I have a couple of experiences that add to my lingering quest for improvement!

I shot the OK State IDPA championships up at the USSA in Tulsa. My third and fourth stages were complete disasters (down 50+ points on these two stages - one was the standards stage which was a b*&@$ - down 102 for the entire match) and in retrospect I feel that I lost my aggressiveness to shoot with urgency. I just couldn't seem to turn it back up after those stages as I was so focused on "shooting As as fast as I can see them" (please forgive me for the IDPA/USPSA intermingling of terminology... I read this site a lot for tips).

Since then, I've shot a couple of local matches and I'm still finding it frustrating as I can't seem to speed up my performance to the next level. I shoot a match almost every weekend, but my only shooting is at the matches. It's extra frustrating because one of my shooting buds has seemed to find that next level. Yeah... I'm a bit jealous!! It is killing me that I feel like I'm stuck and somehow he made a leap that I have yet to make.

Anyway, we shot our last match which is an Action Pistol match. IDPA scoring, but a lot more steel to go w/ the paper targets.... also a bit more movement. Again in this match we had gotten to the last stage and I'm regularly 1-2 seconds slower than him on each stage prior so on the last stage I'm like ... the heck with it... I'm going to let it go on this stage. The end result was I shot the stage really fast, but it was sloppy. When I was done I had several guys I shoot with tell me I looked like I was at a different level, but the sloppiness of shooting resulted in enough penalty points where I didn't really make up *much* time... but I was faster on that stage (by a very small margin) than my compadre who I'm trying to catch.

So... the question is... I read a lot on this forum and a lot of the general consensus is that you "shoot A's as fast as you can see them, the speed will come". I'm wondering if there are times when it is appropriate to just go fast and believe your vision will catch up. Is there a benefit from my brain having to process the info faster, even if I'm performing at a lower level from an accuracy perspective. I don't want to hinder my ability to improve but... there seems to me some validity to letting it hang out and getting it out on the edge.

It really seems like a journey to find that edge and get as near to it as possible and to sometimes push that edge.

Any thoughts you guys have would be appreciated.

Mike

[Joe4d]

Stop shooting matches, find a good competition type instructor and take a class. Work on basic fundamentals and dry fire AFTER the class. You have lots of match practice but as you have found out practice doesnt make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. 105 points down on a single match is really bad. When I shot IDPA regularly I dont think I dropped that many points all season. You need to get someone to watch you shoot and give you specific areas to improve on. Until then just slow down. If you are dropping more than 10% of available points you are going too fast.

[mjoy64]

Joe4d, on Apr 12 2009, 06:20 PM, said:

Stop shooting matches, find a good competition type instructor and take a class. Work on basic fundamentals and dry fire AFTER the class. You have lots of match practice but as you have found out practice doesnt make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. 105 points down on a single match is really bad. When I shot IDPA regularly I dont think I dropped that many points all season. You need to get someone to watch you shoot and give you specific areas to improve on. Until then just slow down. If you are dropping more than 10% of available points you are going too fast.

Joe,

I appreciate the feedback. The OK State IDPA match was 13 stages. Phil Strader was down 56. Gorden Carroll was down 72. Matt Mink was down 105. The guy that won my classification/division was down 90 (I'm classified as a Sharpshooter in IDPA). Roughly 40% of the SSP experts had higher points down than mine. I know it seems like a lot of points down but the match had almost 100 shots 12+ yards and out to 26 yards. I will say that I don't disagree that I need to shoot more accurately... just that you might not have a complete picture of that particular match.

Not bad advice about getting an instructor, but the "stop shooting matches" seems a bit harsh. David Re is in my area and I'm thinking about looking him up. I do think my points down weren't *that* bad for this match.

Mike

This post has been edited by mjoy64: 12 April 2009 - 04:50 PM

[Fullauto_Shooter]

mjoy64, on Apr 12 2009, 06:43 PM, said:

Joe4d, on Apr 12 2009, 06:20 PM, said:

Stop shooting matches, find a good competition type instructor and take a class. Work on basic fundamentals and dry fire AFTER the class. You have lots of match practice but as you have found out practice doesnt make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. 105 points down on a single match is really bad. When I shot IDPA regularly I dont think I dropped that many points all season. You need to get someone to watch you shoot and give you specific areas to improve on. Until then just slow down. If you are dropping more than 10% of available points you are going too fast.

Joe,

I appreciate the feedback. The OK State IDPA match was 13 stages. Phil Strader was down 56. Gorden Carroll was down 72. The guy that won my classification/division was down 90 (I'm classified as a Sharpshooter in IDPA). Roughly 40% of the SSP experts had higher points down than mine. I know it seems like a lot of points down but the match had almost 100 shots 12+ yards and out to 26 yards. I will say that I don't disagree that I need to shoot more accurately... just that you might not have a complete picture of that particular match.

Still, not bad advice about getting an instructor. David Re is in my area and I'm thinking about looking him up. I do think my points down weren't *that* bad for this match.

Mike

Hey Mike,
I agree with the suggestion to get a formal lesson and then dry-fire a ton. Dave is a great shooter and he's helped me informally over the past several years with the occasional tip at matches - all of them very helpful. Like we talked about at the match yesterday, I think it's important to "run on the jagged edge" occasionally - you'll never discover your true potential if you don't exceed your comfort level.

You definitely looked good on stage 5 - and as you mentioned, you beat your rival despite the points down.

Take care,
Doug

[BSeevers]

mjoy64, on Apr 12 2009, 07:14 PM, said:

OK... so I have a couple of experiences that add to my lingering quest for improvement!

I shot the OK State IDPA championships up at the USSA in Tulsa. My third and fourth stages were complete disasters (down 50+ points on these two stages - one was the standards stage which was a b*&@$ - down 102 for the entire match) and in retrospect I feel that I lost my aggressiveness to shoot with urgency. I just couldn't seem to turn it back up after those stages as I was so focused on "shooting As as fast as I can see them" (please forgive me for the IDPA/USPSA intermingling of terminology... I read this site a lot for tips).

Since then, I've shot a couple of local matches and I'm still finding it frustrating as I can't seem to speed up my performance to the next level. I shoot a match almost every weekend, but my only shooting is at the matches. It's extra frustrating because one of my shooting buds has seemed to find that next level. Yeah... I'm a bit jealous!! It is killing me that I feel like I'm stuck and somehow he made a leap that I have yet to make.

Anyway, we shot our last match which is an Action Pistol match. IDPA scoring, but a lot more steel to go w/ the paper targets.... also a bit more movement. Again in this match we had gotten to the last stage and I'm regularly 1-2 seconds slower than him on each stage prior so on the last stage I'm like ... the heck with it... I'm going to let it go on this stage. The end result was I shot the stage really fast, but it was sloppy. When I was done I had several guys I shoot with tell me I looked like I was at a different level, but the sloppiness of shooting resulted in enough penalty points where I didn't really make up *much* time... but I was faster on that stage (by a very small margin) than my compadre who I'm trying to catch.

So... the question is... I read a lot on this forum and a lot of the general consensus is that you "shoot A's as fast as you can see them, the speed will come". I'm wondering if there are times when it is appropriate to just go fast and believe your vision will catch up. Is there a benefit from my brain having to process the info faster, even if I'm performing at a lower level from an accuracy perspective. I don't want to hinder my ability to improve but... there seems to me some validity to letting it hang out and getting it out on the edge.

It really seems like a journey to find that edge and get as near to it as possible and to sometimes push that edge.

Any thoughts you guys have would be appreciated.

Mike

The simple answer is "your doing it wrong" Nothing personal as your comments have been repeated over and over.

I could go on and on...
Couple quick points.
Don't care what people think you "look like"
You shoot A's as fast as you can CALL them.

Fixing those two issues would help match performance. Truly calling your shot at any speed and difficulty can take anywhere from 0 to 8 years. Heres another point..
Practice correct techniques to get better(like joe4d said), matches are where you perform not practice. If you are not practicing well there ya go.

Shoot on the edge when you can shoot A's as fast as you can shoot anything else. Or keep shooting A's.

[mjoy64]

Fullauto_Shooter, on Apr 12 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

mjoy64, on Apr 12 2009, 06:43 PM, said:

Joe4d, on Apr 12 2009, 06:20 PM, said:

Stop shooting matches, find a good competition type instructor and take a class. Work on basic fundamentals and dry fire AFTER the class. You have lots of match practice but as you have found out practice doesnt make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. 105 points down on a single match is really bad. When I shot IDPA regularly I dont think I dropped that many points all season. You need to get someone to watch you shoot and give you specific areas to improve on. Until then just slow down. If you are dropping more than 10% of available points you are going too fast.

Joe,

I appreciate the feedback. The OK State IDPA match was 13 stages. Phil Strader was down 56. Gorden Carroll was down 72. The guy that won my classification/division was down 90 (I'm classified as a Sharpshooter in IDPA). Roughly 40% of the SSP experts had higher points down than mine. I know it seems like a lot of points down but the match had almost 100 shots 12+ yards and out to 26 yards. I will say that I don't disagree that I need to shoot more accurately... just that you might not have a complete picture of that particular match.

Still, not bad advice about getting an instructor. David Re is in my area and I'm thinking about looking him up. I do think my points down weren't *that* bad for this match.

Mike

Doug,

Hey Mike,
I agree with the suggestion to get a formal lesson and then dry-fire a ton. Dave is a great shooter and he's helped me informally over the past several years with the occasional tip at matches - all of them very helpful. Like we talked about at the match yesterday, I think it's important to "run on the jagged edge" occasionally - you'll never discover your true potential if you don't exceed your comfort level.

You definitely looked good on stage 5 - and as you mentioned, you beat your rival despite the points down.

Take care,
Doug

Hey Doug!

Thanks for the feedback. I feel like I must not be expressing myself very well based on the feedback so far. It's helpful to get input from someone at the match that actually saw what I'm trying to put in words.

I guess if I had a redo at expressing the thought it would be...

Is there benefit to (for some percentage of your shooting) to dropping the Shoot A's as fast as you see them mindset and let it run a little ragged to push your envelope where you're having to see things a little faster?

Mike

[JThompson]

Quote

Hey Doug!

Thanks for the feedback. I feel like I must not be expressing myself very well based on the feedback so far. It's helpful to get input from someone at the match that actually saw what I'm trying to put in words.

I guess if I had a redo at expressing the thought it would be...

Is there benefit to (for some percentage of your shooting) to dropping the Shoot A's as fast as you see them mindset and let it run a little ragged to push your envelope where you're having to see things a little faster?

Mike

No. You run it to the ragged edge in practice, to know where it's at... then you pull back just a touch and you know where the blow-up point is... in theory anyway.

[mjoy64]

BSeevers, on Apr 12 2009, 06:58 PM, said:

mjoy64, on Apr 12 2009, 07:14 PM, said:

OK... so I have a couple of experiences that add to my lingering quest for improvement!

I shot the OK State IDPA championships up at the USSA in Tulsa. My third and fourth stages were complete disasters (down 50+ points on these two stages - one was the standards stage which was a b*&@$ - down 102 for the entire match) and in retrospect I feel that I lost my aggressiveness to shoot with urgency. I just couldn't seem to turn it back up after those stages as I was so focused on "shooting As as fast as I can see them" (please forgive me for the IDPA/USPSA intermingling of terminology... I read this site a lot for tips).

Since then, I've shot a couple of local matches and I'm still finding it frustrating as I can't seem to speed up my performance to the next level. I shoot a match almost every weekend, but my only shooting is at the matches. It's extra frustrating because one of my shooting buds has seemed to find that next level. Yeah... I'm a bit jealous!! It is killing me that I feel like I'm stuck and somehow he made a leap that I have yet to make.

Anyway, we shot our last match which is an Action Pistol match. IDPA scoring, but a lot more steel to go w/ the paper targets.... also a bit more movement. Again in this match we had gotten to the last stage and I'm regularly 1-2 seconds slower than him on each stage prior so on the last stage I'm like ... the heck with it... I'm going to let it go on this stage. The end result was I shot the stage really fast, but it was sloppy. When I was done I had several guys I shoot with tell me I looked like I was at a different level, but the sloppiness of shooting resulted in enough penalty points where I didn't really make up *much* time... but I was faster on that stage (by a very small margin) than my compadre who I'm trying to catch.

So... the question is... I read a lot on this forum and a lot of the general consensus is that you "shoot A's as fast as you can see them, the speed will come". I'm wondering if there are times when it is appropriate to just go fast and believe your vision will catch up. Is there a benefit from my brain having to process the info faster, even if I'm performing at a lower level from an accuracy perspective. I don't want to hinder my ability to improve but... there seems to me some validity to letting it hang out and getting it out on the edge.

It really seems like a journey to find that edge and get as near to it as possible and to sometimes push that edge.

Any thoughts you guys have would be appreciated.

Mike

The simple answer is "your doing it wrong" Nothing personal as your comments have been repeated over and over.

I could go on and on...
Couple quick points.
Don't care what people think you "look like"
You shoot A's as fast as you can CALL them.

Fixing those two issues would help match performance. Truly calling your shot at any speed and difficulty can take anywhere from 0 to 8 years. Heres another point..
Practice correct techniques to get better(like joe4d said), matches are where you perform not practice. If you are not practicing well there ya go.

Shoot on the edge when you can shoot A's as fast as you can shoot anything else. Or keep shooting A's.

Bill,

Nothing personal, but you really have no idea what I'm doing. I'm probably at fault for clouding the question with too much background story. There is only one question I was trying to pose:

Is there a benefit for (ever) shooting a stage on the ragged edge as opposed to the "shoot A's as fast as you can call them"?

I know I need to practice. I know help from professional trainers will help my technique. Those things are not a question in my mind. And fwiw... I don't care what people think I "look like"... it was only an observation from the match (along with the results... which were better).

Mike

[mjoy64]

JThompson, on Apr 12 2009, 08:13 PM, said:

Quote

Hey Doug!

Thanks for the feedback. I feel like I must not be expressing myself very well based on the feedback so far. It's helpful to get input from someone at the match that actually saw what I'm trying to put in words.

I guess if I had a redo at expressing the thought it would be...

Is there benefit to (for some percentage of your shooting) to dropping the Shoot A's as fast as you see them mindset and let it run a little ragged to push your envelope where you're having to see things a little faster?

Mike

No. You run it to the ragged edge in practice, to know where it's at... then you pull back just a touch and you know where the blow-up point is... in theory anyway.

That makes a lot of sense! Unfortunately my ability to practice something other than slow fire shooting at the range is fairly limited. I suppose I need to hit up a friend with some land in the country or commit to driving a little farther to be able to practice in this manner.

Mike

[Fullauto_Shooter]

mjoy64, on Apr 12 2009, 08:20 PM, said:

JThompson, on Apr 12 2009, 08:13 PM, said:

Quote

Hey Doug!

Thanks for the feedback. I feel like I must not be expressing myself very well based on the feedback so far. It's helpful to get input from someone at the match that actually saw what I'm trying to put in words.

I guess if I had a redo at expressing the thought it would be...

Is there benefit to (for some percentage of your shooting) to dropping the Shoot A's as fast as you see them mindset and let it run a little ragged to push your envelope where you're having to see things a little faster?

Mike

No. You run it to the ragged edge in practice, to know where it's at... then you pull back just a touch and you know where the blow-up point is... in theory anyway.

That makes a lot of sense! Unfortunately my ability to practice something other than slow fire shooting at the range is fairly limited. I suppose I need to hit up a friend with some land in the country or commit to driving a little farther to be able to practice in this manner.

Mike

Mike,
Are you a member at Temple Gun Club? I occasionally go out there and practice some fast shooting, drawing from holster, etc. Not much opportunity to "run" and gun, but a good place to practice "at speed". If you want to go out and practice sometime, let me know and maybe we could go shoot together.

Doug

[mjoy64]

Fullauto_Shooter, on Apr 12 2009, 08:27 PM, said:

mjoy64, on Apr 12 2009, 08:20 PM, said:

JThompson, on Apr 12 2009, 08:13 PM, said:

Quote

Hey Doug!

Thanks for the feedback. I feel like I must not be expressing myself very well based on the feedback so far. It's helpful to get input from someone at the match that actually saw what I'm trying to put in words.

I guess if I had a redo at expressing the thought it would be...

Is there benefit to (for some percentage of your shooting) to dropping the Shoot A's as fast as you see them mindset and let it run a little ragged to push your envelope where you're having to see things a little faster?

Mike

No. You run it to the ragged edge in practice, to know where it's at... then you pull back just a touch and you know where the blow-up point is... in theory anyway.

That makes a lot of sense! Unfortunately my ability to practice something other than slow fire shooting at the range is fairly limited. I suppose I need to hit up a friend with some land in the country or commit to driving a little farther to be able to practice in this manner.

Mike

Mike,
Are you a member at Temple Gun Club? I occasionally go out there and practice some fast shooting, drawing from holster, etc. Not much opportunity to "run" and gun, but a good place to practice "at speed". If you want to go out and practice sometime, let me know and maybe we could go shoot together.

Doug

I am. I do practice some like that occasionally, but only if I am the only person at the range. I'd love to get together sometime. I bet we could get Paul and Zeb to come out as well! I've got a trunk full of used targets from our local matches. PM me and let me know if there is some time you think would be best. I appreciate the offer!

Mike

[Jake Di Vita]

Quote

I shoot a match almost every weekend, but my only shooting is at the matches

The problem is you are shooting only once a week (maybe) and are expecting to improve. If you want to get better at anything, it requires damn hard consistent work. #1 is to start dry firing every day.

Matches are not and never will be practice. Matches are where you find out what to practice next.

[fasteddy]

Jake Di Vita, on Apr 13 2009, 06:28 AM, said:

Quote

I shoot a match almost every weekend, but my only shooting is at the matches

The problem is you are shooting only once a week (maybe) and are expecting to improve. If you want to get better at anything, it requires damn hard consistent work. #1 is to start dry firing every day.

Matches are not and never will be practice. Matches are where you find out what to practice next.

Absolutely agree..! religious dry firing everyday, 2 club shoot each week, shoot monthly matches and review self after match performance make you improve dramatically..This is what I did to my self less than 6 months shooting OPEN division from ungraded to B grade..and still working hard to reached my maximum potential.

[benos]

mjoy64, on Apr 12 2009, 06:13 PM, said:

Is there a benefit for (ever) shooting a stage on the ragged edge as opposed to the "shoot A's as fast as you can call them"?

Not in a match.

Jake Di Vita, on Apr 13 2009, 05:28 AM, said:

Quote

I shoot a match almost every weekend, but my only shooting is at the matches

The problem is you are shooting only once a week (maybe) and are expecting to improve. If you want to get better at anything, it requires damn hard consistent work. #1 is to start dry firing every day.

Matches are not and never will be practice. Matches are where you find out what to practice next.

Yes to that.
be

[mjoy64]

benos, on Apr 13 2009, 07:50 PM, said:

mjoy64, on Apr 12 2009, 06:13 PM, said:

Is there a benefit for (ever) shooting a stage on the ragged edge as opposed to the "shoot A's as fast as you can call them"?

Not in a match.

Jake Di Vita, on Apr 13 2009, 05:28 AM, said:

Quote

I shoot a match almost every weekend, but my only shooting is at the matches

The problem is you are shooting only once a week (maybe) and are expecting to improve. If you want to get better at anything, it requires damn hard consistent work. #1 is to start dry firing every day.

Matches are not and never will be practice. Matches are where you find out what to practice next.

Yes to that.
be

I can see (more clearly now) I that I'm going to need to make a real commitment to get better and that just shooting matches will only get me so far. After pondering the feedback I'm realizing that I need to focus on things the things that really matter. I've been able to apply that in business, relationships, etc. Now I need to apply it to my shooting. It's an interesting (and fun!) journey.

This site is a wealth of experience and info. Thanks for all of replies.

Mike

[opcx6]

mjoy64, on Apr 14 2009, 01:43 PM, said:

benos, on Apr 13 2009, 07:50 PM, said:

mjoy64, on Apr 12 2009, 06:13 PM, said:

Is there a benefit for (ever) shooting a stage on the ragged edge as opposed to the "shoot A's as fast as you can call them"?

Not in a match.

Jake Di Vita, on Apr 13 2009, 05:28 AM, said:

Quote

I shoot a match almost every weekend, but my only shooting is at the matches

The problem is you are shooting only once a week (maybe) and are expecting to improve. If you want to get better at anything, it requires damn hard consistent work. #1 is to start dry firing every day.

Matches are not and never will be practice. Matches are where you find out what to practice next.

Yes to that.
be

I can see (more clearly now) I that I'm going to need to make a real commitment to get better and that just shooting matches will only get me so far. After pondering the feedback I'm realizing that I need to focus on things the things that really matter. I've been able to apply that in business, relationships, etc. Now I need to apply it to my shooting. It's an interesting (and fun!) journey.

This site is a wealth of experience and info. Thanks for all of replies.

Mike

The best shooters are invariably very accurate shooters. You must be accurate before you can be fast and competitive in matches. Dry firing is the cheapest practice at home, then practice accuracy at the range. I would dry fire 1/2 hour a day through the week, practice 300-400 rounds .45 on Saturday, then shoot a club match (IPSC) in the afternoon, then put that experience to the test in a league or Provincial (Ontario) match on Sunday. I had no bullseye experience or training prior to IPSC, but this regimen allowed me to become very proficient in a few months. So, learn to be accurate, then take a course from the best instructor you can and learn to shoot fast! Bryan

[lugnut]

Here's something I love to repeat to myself:

"In action shooting you are trading off accuracy for time, if you don't have accuracy to begin with you have nothing to trade off"

I'm not saying you don't have accuracy, I don't know, but you need to really work on the fundamentals. I can't tell you how many people come to our matches for years and are still SS or MM. And for many of them, they are fine with that... it's occasional entertainment. Then there are shooters that are stuck at MM or SS and just get stuck. When I ask them if they dry fire- they say no. When I ask them if they do "one hole" drills they don't know what I mean. When I ask if they practice reloads at home they say no. When I ask them if they have the BE book or a Saul Kirsch book they have no idea what I'm talking about. And worse than that... when they do go to a match they aren't even trying to figure out "HOW" the higher ranked shooters are running so fast... it's not all in the splits I can tell you that!

Point is, just like everyone said- if you want to improve, you need to do good practice. I've met plenty of people that get to SS without really working much outside of going to group practices and matches. To get to Expert and beyond takes some extra work unless you are just naturally gifted.

Oh... and for the record. I have tried to just go balls to the wall before in a stage... it rarely works! But on more occasions I've said to myself- take time to focus on the sight picture I need, run smooth with the trigger, drive the gun well and don't worry about time.... well those kind of runs have given me my best classifier times in USPSA.

Get some good practice and you will be beating your friend...

This post has been edited by lugnut: 25 May 2009 - 04:30 PM