[Corjyn]

Hey Flex,

Thanks for revisiting this topic!!

Note:I broke this question out of another thread... - Admin.


I have a question for the experienced handgun gurus. I am having difficulty adjusting to "front sight" focus, this leaves the target blurry and I realize the eye can't accommodate both within focus; however this seems counter-intuitive and find myself re-focusing on the target. I am working on this and curious if this is common or am I just a newbie being a newbie.

John

This post has been edited by Flexmoney: 10 April 2009 - 10:01 AM

[Erucolindon]

From my observation, the target, depending on range, is much larger than the front sight in terms of field of few. I keep the sight in focus and then put it over the center of the blurrier target. Doing the opposite, leaves much more room for error, as you aren't paying as much attention to were the sight is pointing. This of course can be wildly user dependent as we all see, focus, and coordinate a little differently. I think with time and training though, front sight focus will prove to be the more reliable and adaptable method.

[zipper046]

no doubt this is not an easy thing to master. It took me awhile to TRUST my front sight when the target was blurry. Now, when I do that and focus 100% on the front sight I'm getting better hits.

We've seen some new shooters also say they focus more on the target. After observing them awhile, we noticed that they not only focused on the target, but that tendency led to the shooter trying to see his/her hits on the target and resulted in them dipping their gun down a bit and looking over the front sight.

I figure, as long as the target is blurry....I really don't need to see what his T-shirt is saying! ;-)

z-

[bulamike]

Agree it also depends what your shooting at what range.
IPSC/IDPA targets for me out to 15yds I look through my sights, and squeeze the trigger knowing that the sights are on target and blurry, the target is crystal clear. Thats also how I train.
If the target is steel pie plates, or head shots, I focus on front site post. also do the same if Im shooting bulls.

[Ramas]

Through transition I am looking crystal clear at small spot in A zone and then move my sights to this spot and transfer my eye sight to crystal clear at fornt sight. Doing this somehow my sights stops in this spot where I was looking.
Do you remmember: aim small, miss small!

[Lead slinger]

Front site is the best to focus on. It does take time to get use too. I have been shooting for a little over a year now and it keeps on getting easier and easier everytime I shoot a match to focus on my front site. It pays off too, I shot the double tap match last month, my first big national match, and I placed 4th in b-class. Practice and shooting every weekend is what helped me the most and I also dry fire while at home picking different spots on the wall to work on transition.

[HoMiE]

When I shoot iron sights, I look for the target, then I look for the front sight. Depending on the target distance, you might get away with looking through the sights on close stuff. But works works the best for me is target, sight, target, sight, target, sight. Of course this happens really fast, but I try to keep my eyes moving. My transitions really slow down if I follow the front sight, instead of snapping the eyes and trusting your hands to get the gun/sights to where your looking.

[lugnut]

I can't "see" how you could anything well without front sight focus. Like others said, acquire the target spot while moving your sight into the target area you want to hit. Other than real close targets.... I can't understand how I could look more at the target and hit anything well. For example- when I'm shooting a bunch of USPSA targets- I generally know where the A zone is so I just move my front sight there as soon as I can.

I swear the best sight picture for me is IDPA low light. You get an awesome sight picture and a nicely lit blurry target. You KNOW you are seeing the front sight or not in those conditions!

[hk_mtbr]

Here's the thoughts I have/had during yesterday's match...yes front sight.

http://www.brianenos...?...c=82865&hl=

[Singlestack]

The only way to know where the shot went is to be looking at the front sight when the shot is fired.

[Jake Di Vita]

Quote

The only way to know where the shot went is to be looking at the front sight when the shot is fired.

That isn't the only way, the sights just give you the most dependable feedback.

[Corjyn]

Thanks for the input. I was at the range tonight and focused or attempted to focus on the front sights completely, at 10 feet, 20 feet and 30 feet. Groups were so much better; with attention to the front sight (blurry target). I hope I will be able to focus at speed (i.e. during a stage). Thanks again for the info.

John

[Singlestack]

Jake Di Vita, on Apr 13 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

Quote

The only way to know where the shot went is to be looking at the front sight when the shot is fired.

That isn't the only way, the sights just give you the most dependable feedback.

True, you can always look for holes

[Jake Di Vita]

Quote

True, you can always look for holes

Or have a well developed index.

[Singlestack]

Jake Di Vita, on Apr 15 2009, 08:49 AM, said:

Quote

True, you can always look for holes

Or have a well developed index.

You are gonna have to explain to me how I can know where my shot went from my index.

[Jake Di Vita]

Well to be able to call your shot accurately, you don't need to necessarily read your sights, you just need to know exactly where the gun was pointed the instant the bullet left the barrel. If your index is developed sufficiently, you can call shots with either a target focus, or sighting along the top of the slide to a certain yardage. Now, I'm not necessarily recommending this because the sights will always give you the most accurate feedback.

Where this becomes important is when you touch on area of acceptability. For example, if I can call my shots to within 2 inches at 5 yards without fail. Essentially all I need to do is aim in the center of the A zone and I'm guaranteed an A zone hit. Even if I'm off by 2 inches, if my POA is the center of the A zone, I will make a good hit and have no hesitation at all in my shooting. That same ability to call hits within 2 inches at 5 yards may translate to 6 inches at 10 yards. At that point, my index is not sufficiently developed enough to rely on it to shoot consistent A's.

At arms length targets, as long as there is not considerable risk (ie, hard cover or no shoot) I don't really care where my round impacts the A zone - just as long as it's in the A zone. The year I shot L10 nats, there was a dark house. You only really needed the flashlight for the first 3 targets. The 2 in the 2nd room were well lit enough to where you could shoot them without the flashlight. There was a final target in the last room to the right though that was completely blacked out - you couldn't see it at all without the flashlight. I decided to give myself a point of reference (my shoulder on the door frame, aim to the inside of the door) to shoot the target without a light. I ended up shooting 3 rounds on it, and shot 3 Alphas without seeing the target OR the sights. Pure index. My area of acceptability was comfortable enough to where I could shoot the target on index alone, and it ended up saving me a good half second. I think I won the stage because of it.

Hope that helps.

(PS...at work, so didn't have a chance to proof read)

[GTOSHootr]

Jake,
I like your explanation. It reminds me of how I think of what a called shot is in relation to my days as a philosophy major (what I remember of it). In those terms it is a reliabilist theory of justifcation. That would say that one has a justified belief (that they called their shot) if, and only if, the belief is the result of a reliable process. So at arms length, shooting from your well trained index, is a reliable process. For you, that holds true even in the dark. What we each have to figure out in practice is what are relaible processes are under different circumstances.

[jkrispies]

Corjyn, on Apr 14 2009, 06:00 PM, said:

Thanks for the input. I was at the range tonight and focused or attempted to focus on the front sights completely, at 10 feet, 20 feet and 30 feet. Groups were so much better; with attention to the front sight (blurry target). I hope I will be able to focus at speed (i.e. during a stage). Thanks again for the info.

John

John, it will help your speed if you focus on the target and swing your sights (or raise the sights if on the draw) to the point you're looking at and then shift your focus immediately to the front sight when the gun gets there. If you try to follow the sights to the next target, you'll either overswing or end up blindly searching for the A-zone.

You already do this technique of snapping your vision and following it, and you don't realize it. When you are going to write something with a pencil, you don't look at the pencil, pick it up and follow the tip with your eyes until you find the spot on the paper and start writing, correct? Instead, you look at the spot on the paper, grab the pencil, and bring the tip of the pencil to the target spot on the paper where your eyes are locked... and then focus on the tip of the pencil!

Get it?

[1SOW]

jkrispies +1

When playing run and gun games, I think it varies from target--point-- shoot to target--front sight-- shoot depending on the distance and target. These give the advantage of faster target acquisition, maintaining peripheral awareness and ultimately speed.

On the other hand when a friend and I compete in our traditional 5 shotgun hull competition at 25 yds, it's more 'front sight, target, front sight, target, bang. The dern target is smaller than the front FO sight. The normal figure 8 sight sight movement when concentrating on a small target determines when the bang happens. You may have just been looking at the sight or the target.

This post has been edited by 1SOW: 22 April 2009 - 07:59 PM

[Jake Di Vita]

One quick thing I'd like to add....You won't get in to trouble using a front sight focus. You probably won't get into too much trouble using a target focus either. The dangerous part is when you don't focus on either one.

I've been doing this stuff for a long time now, and the other day I was doing a little group shooting at 25 yards wondering why I couldn't hit shit. What I had thought was front sight focus - wasn't....and it was very apparent on paper. When that finally hit me, I focused real hard exclusively on the front sight and shot a 2 inch group.

It's amazing...I know what to do, have taught many many people and given tons of advice on what to do, all the while I got lazy and wasn't even doing it myself. So I guess the point is, if you are shooting with a front sight focus and still can't hit the target well (assuming you have good trigger control) maybe you really aren't focusing as hard on the sight as you think.

[jkrispies]

Jake Di Vita, on Apr 23 2009, 05:24 AM, said:

I've been doing this stuff for a long time now, and the other day I was doing a little group shooting at 25 yards wondering why I couldn't hit shit. What I had thought was front sight focus - wasn't....and it was very apparent on paper. When that finally hit me, I focused real hard exclusively on the front sight and shot a 2 inch group.

It's amazing...I know what to do, have taught many many people and given tons of advice on what to do, all the while I got lazy and wasn't even doing it myself. So I guess the point is, if you are shooting with a front sight focus and still can't hit the target well (assuming you have good trigger control) maybe you really aren't focusing as hard on the sight as you think.

+1

I shot a match last weekend, and after a run on a plate rack that I almost cleaned, I realized that I'd done as well as I had off a fair amount of luck. About 50% of the time I was concentrating on the plates rather than the front sight when I pulled the trigger and it cost me when I had to go back and reshoot the misses that should have been hits. The good news is that I had enough self-awareness to analyze my mistake, and now I'm taking actions to correct it.

[Flexmoney]

+2

It always gets me when people relate stories of "I trained to use the front sight, but focused on the target".

Nah...training is a whole 'nother thing.

[jkrispies]

Flexmoney, on Apr 23 2009, 10:02 AM, said:

It always gets me when people relate stories of "I trained to use the front sight, but focused on the target".

Since I only shoot with iron sights, I don't have any excuse, but... I wonder if this problem is exacerbated by folks who shoot open guns with dot sights, and then switch back and forth to iron sights on their limiteds, etc.? Maybe building a good habit with one platform creates a bad habit with another platform? Just wondering outloud.

[Crabbys44]

Corjyn, on Apr 9 2009, 09:39 PM, said:

Hey Flex,

Thanks for revisiting this topic!!

Note:I broke this question out of another thread... - Admin.


I have a question for the experienced handgun gurus. I am having difficulty adjusting to "front sight" focus, this leaves the target blurry and I realize the eye can't accommodate both within focus; however this seems counter-intuitive and find myself re-focusing on the target. I am working on this and curious if this is common or am I just a newbie being a newbie.

John

The front sight is the most important thing to focus on for consistent hits. As for being a newbie, we all were at one time and someone had to teach us too.

There are 3 fundamentals of marksmanship.
1. sight alignment
a. The front sight must be centered in the rear sight with the top of the sight level with the top of the rear sight and an equal amount of daylight on each side of the front sight.
2. sight picture
a. Place your perfect sight alignment where you want the bullet to impact on your target.
3. trigger control
a. The MOST IMPORTANT. You must be able to smoothly press the trigger to the rear until the shot breaks without disturbing your sight alignment or sight picture.
Your focus on the front sight should be so hard that you can count the lines of the cuts across the rear face of the front sight.
As you develop your skills, (HINT including lots of dry practice) you will learn about things like indexing and natural point of aim. For a beginner, or all of us in reality, you must master the fundamentals first.

[benos]

Jake Di Vita, on Apr 23 2009, 05:24 AM, said:

One quick thing I'd like to add....You won't get in to trouble using a front sight focus. You probably won't get into too much trouble using a target focus either. The dangerous part is when you don't focus on either one.

I've been doing this stuff for a long time now, and the other day I was doing a little group shooting at 25 yards wondering why I couldn't hit shit. What I had thought was front sight focus - wasn't....and it was very apparent on paper. When that finally hit me, I focused real hard exclusively on the front sight and shot a 2 inch group.

It's amazing...I know what to do, have taught many many people and given tons of advice on what to do, all the while I got lazy and wasn't even doing it myself. So I guess the point is, if you are shooting with a front sight focus and still can't hit the target well (assuming you have good trigger control) maybe you really aren't focusing as hard on the sight as you think.

That's good stuff.

When you are really looking right at the front sight, it will look like a giant, square building, with razor sharp edges, silhouetted against the sky.
be