[want2race]

20 round shotgun stage with 4 slugs, unloaded start. PITA or OK? Would you skip it?

This post has been edited by want2race: 06 April 2009 - 06:01 PM

[GentlemanJim]

Sign me up
Jim

[uscbigdawg]

IMHO it's kinda pointless, but I'd still shoot it.

Rich

[BerKim]

Not my favorite stages.. they take more time to shoot. and don't real test much.. it only distances the shooters who can reload fast, and those that can't.

It's like starting a pistol stage with bullets in your pocket, mag in the other.. shotguns are different just because the rounds are bigger?

Just wondeinrg.. what this does for a Saiga?

This post has been edited by BerKim: 06 April 2009 - 06:25 PM

[want2race]

I had a blast shooting it.
I spent a couple days coming up with a challenging stage that required movement, slugs and reloading. Our shotgun stages were fun, but we have small bays so it's difficult to come up with something other than 12 round hosers. For me, reloading the gun is part of the fun of shooting a shotgun stage. It adds a ton of stress on me and that's why I do this anyway.

I understand the point about separating those that can load fast vs. those that can't. Should that come into play in stage design? We don't do that on pistol stages do we?
With 20 rounds, I should have started gun loaded. Oh well. I have the PDF if you want to see it.

This post has been edited by want2race: 06 April 2009 - 06:43 PM

[mlmiller1]

Let me start with I don't have any connection to th OP or the match he is asking about but I have an opinion. I try to setup shotgun stages with unloaded starts for shotguns for a couple of reasons. One, if you go to a big match, you will have to reload your shotty while the timer is running. You might as well learn it. If I set up a stage big enough so you shoot plus have to reload, that is a huge stage. If we skip the first shots & just get to the reloading, we have saved some of the shooters on a tight budget some bucks.

If I choose to shoot my saiga, the unloaded start will apply to the mag fed guns, as well as it does to the tube guns. Unloaded means to me, unloaded. No rounds in mags or tubes.

These are just my opinions & my reasoning.

Oh yeah, the OP asked if I would shoot it or skip it? You bet, I'm shooting it, count me in!

MLM

[hk_mtbr]

BerKim, on Apr 6 2009, 09:23 PM, said:

It's like starting a pistol stage with bullets in your pocket, mag in the other..

Sounds cool to me...but so does this...

[ken hebert]

Grip it and rip it.

[want2race]

Stage description. The "DQ" was added as a club safety (popper safety) measure.

Attached File(s)

•  This_sucks.pdf (1.12MB)
  Number of downloads: 86

[GentlemanJim]

Mag fed guns would be in open only ...so who would want to start with an empty mag?

With the equipment out there now and newer stuff on the way...I wouldnt try any (level the playing field stuff)

Its just not a good thing to punish the folks that create a better mousetrap.
Jim

[Flexmoney]

mlmiller1, on Apr 6 2009, 09:42 PM, said:

If I choose to shoot my saiga, the unloaded start will apply to the mag fed guns, as well as it does to the tube guns. Unloaded means to me, unloaded. No rounds in mags or tubes.

...and the speed loaders for the tube feed guns are empty too?



I think I'd call "unloaded" as being no rounds in the gun. Just like we see in pistol.

[want2race]

If we had any open class shooters I would have recomended empty gun, loaded mags. Mags or speed loaders are not part of the gun until attached or used.

[Airedale]

I spent 1 1/2 hours on this stage Sunday. We had 8 in our squad and all had 3 gun experience.

The problem was with the stage equipment. Hanging clays on the tip of 1/2 rebar, in the wind, doesn't work. We had to stop shooters in mid run due to range equipment failure (falling clays). We had to repeatedly reset the clays while shooters were on the line ready to run.

The stage would have been fine with proper clay holders.

Dave

[mlmiller1]

Yeah, you guys are right about the mags, I guess. We don't have anyone that shoots with us that has speed loaders. IOW, no open shotguns unless I bring my saiga. I didn't think about the speed loaders. That would put a different spin on things. Loaded tubes & mags, unloaded gun.

As for keeping the clays on the rebar, at the Johnson 3-gun, they used rubber bands to hold the clays on their holders. Granted they weren't just a piece of rebar but I bet that would work for you. Just buy a huge box of rubber bands & plan to use them.

MLM

[RiggerJJ]

Unloaded starts are just fine, as you say, to get the reloading "practice", you need to either have a monster stage, or do a unloaded start.

Unloaded means just that, unloaded. box mags or speed loaders may be filled. just like with a pistol stage.

and a comment about the start position; low ready with stock on belt is a contradiction and is impossible to do. "low ready" is gun shouldered, cheek welded, on safe, finger off trigger, gun pointed at ground usually at a 45degree angle toward the target. "stock on belt" is also know as "port arms"; stock on belt, muzzle above eye level, on safe, finger off trigger.

Why the DQ for slugs on steel? what is the safety violation? a dent in a popper is not a safety violation.

jj

This post has been edited by RiggerJJ: 07 April 2009 - 08:12 AM

[J-Ho]

GentlemanJim, on Apr 6 2009, 11:00 PM, said:

Its just not a good thing to punish the folks that create a better mousetrap.
Jim

[steel1212]

RiggerJJ, on Apr 7 2009, 11:09 AM, said:

Why the DQ for slugs on steel? what is the safety violation? a dent in a popper is not a safety violation.

jj

It would be like using AP ammo in rifle, it damages the steel.

[Loose Brass]

Airedale, on Apr 7 2009, 08:20 AM, said:

I spent 1 1/2 hours on this stage Sunday. We had 8 in our squad and all had 3 gun experience.

The problem was with the stage equipment. Hanging clays on the tip of 1/2 rebar, in the wind, doesn't work. We had to stop shooters in mid run due to range equipment failure (falling clays). We had to repeatedly reset the clays while shooters were on the line ready to run.

The stage would have been fine with proper clay holders.

Dave

When my squad shot this everything seemed to go relatively smooth. Resetting the stage was a bit more than what we normally do but it didn't seem to take that much longer. We used strands of duct tape across the back of the clays to hold them onto the rebar. I didn't see any fall off before or during a stage.

Let me premise this statement by saying even though I am a Pistol Director at BGSL I have nothing to do with running this match other than conducting new shooter check-in. I thought this was a good stage and I really enjoyed the challenge of it. I think that stages like this will help me be better prepared at major matches. While I have also enjoyed all of our previous shotgun stages I thought this was nice to do something other than the usual get 12 shots off as fast as you can type stages. For the first time I actually had to think as hard about how to shoot this stage as I would normally do with a lot of the pistol stages. To me it just seemed on par with some of the more involved pistol stages.

Just my 2 cents

[RiggerJJ]

DQs are for safety violations...only, not target damage. anything downrange of the shooter can and should be expected to be damaged. this includes props, targets, target stands, etc.

AP used on steel is avoided by the RO checking ALL ammo with a magnet. if you want to avoid target damage, you need to be proactive as the "owner" of the target and keep the damage from happening in the 1st place, not hand out DQs willy nilly.
Same with slugs on poppers. either get AR500 poppers, or make the "offender" pay for the target damage. have the ROs watch very carefully and advise the shooter when he about to make a slug-on-popper mistake, again being proactive to keep the target damage from happening.
on a 3 gun stage with pistol/shotgun steel, you must have very heads up ROs to keep the shooter from engaging the short range steel with rifle. again, being proactive to try to prevent target damage. telling the shooter he will be paying for targets damaged by engaging it with the wrong firearm in the stage description will help deter problems.

jj

[steel1212]

RiggerJJ, on Apr 7 2009, 11:56 AM, said:

DQs are for safety violations...only, not target damage. anything downrange of the shooter can and should be expected to be damaged. this includes props, targets, target stands, etc.

AP used on steel is avoided by the RO checking ALL ammo with a magnet. if you want to avoid target damage, you need to be proactive as the "owner" of the target and keep the damage from happening in the 1st place, not hand out DQs willy nilly.
Same with slugs on poppers. either get AR500 poppers, or make the "offender" pay for the target damage. have the ROs watch very carefully and advise the shooter when he about to make a slug-on-popper mistake, again being proactive to keep the target damage from happening.
on a 3 gun stage with pistol/shotgun steel, you must have very heads up ROs to keep the shooter from engaging the short range steel with rifle. again, being proactive to try to prevent target damage. telling the shooter he will be paying for targets damaged by engaging it with the wrong firearm in the stage description will help deter problems.

jj

We are drifting the thread if you want to talk about our range rules by all means pm me.

[Chris Conley]

I wish I could find the time just shoot a shotgun stage. We have had some issues at our range with mixing slugs and shot. I don't see and issue with it but others may think differently. Sounds like fun to me!!!! I say good stage.

Chris C.

[RiggerJJ]

I've said my piece...

BTW, great stage, mind if I use it for our local monthly match?


jj

[want2race]

I don't mind. A smoking run on this would be in the 45 second range, from unloaded.

[Scott R]

RiggerJJ, on Apr 7 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

DQs are for safety violations...only, not target damage. anything downrange of the shooter can and should be expected to be damaged. this includes props, targets, target stands, etc.

AP used on steel is avoided by the RO checking ALL ammo with a magnet. if you want to avoid target damage, you need to be proactive as the "owner" of the target and keep the damage from happening in the 1st place, not hand out DQs willy nilly.
Same with slugs on poppers. either get AR500 poppers, or make the "offender" pay for the target damage. have the ROs watch very carefully and advise the shooter when he about to make a slug-on-popper mistake, again being proactive to keep the target damage from happening.
on a 3 gun stage with pistol/shotgun steel, you must have very heads up ROs to keep the shooter from engaging the short range steel with rifle. again, being proactive to try to prevent target damage. telling the shooter he will be paying for targets damaged by engaging it with the wrong firearm in the stage description will help deter problems.

jj

It would appear that it is a safety violation under 10.5 "Unsafe Gun Handling".

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling
Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

10.5.17 A shot fired at a metal target from a distance of less than 16 feet when
using birdshot or buckshot ammunition or 131 feet when using slug
ammunition. The distance is measured from the face of the target to the
nearest part of the competitor’s body in contact with the ground (see
Rule 2.1.3).

Given that in the stage diagram there are clays next to the poppers I would say that they are most likely inside of the 131 feet.
While I am not a big fan of a stage where poor ammo management could result in a DQ, situations like this do come up from time to time.

Edited to add that.... Yes I would shoot the stage as I feel the ability to load a shotgun efficiently is one of most tested skills in shotgun stages.

This post has been edited by Scott R: 07 April 2009 - 06:04 PM

[want2race]

Thanks for the post scott.

I shot the Area 6 3 gun match two years ago. They had one stage that had steel and paper as well. The stage was set up as such that I spent 2 hours in the hotel room deciding how I wanted to shoot it (got eyes on the day prior to shooting). The plan I came up with was a good one. The ammo in the carriers was mixed. Some of my carriers had two field, two slugs due to where the steel was to be engaged. I totally botched it up since it was the first time I had ever used the carriers and I loaded the ammo in reverse order from what I needed. I kept the ammo straight going into the gun, but my time was horrible. The guy I went with also used my plan and SMOKED the stage. The point? Steel and paper mixed stages exist and I think they're fun and challenging.