[waxman]

Just got in from a pretty long practice session dedicated 100% to transitions. I found that I was much smooter, and felt faster, not snappng my head to the next target. I know most say to snap the head, which is what i was forcing myself to do. What I ended up doing, is after my shot breaks, I started the gun towards the target, but lead it quite a ways with my eyes. I arrived at the target with the eyes, just as the gun was comming onto the target. I found that the sights were ALOT easier to aquire, and there was alot less jerkyness from stopping the pistol and bringing it up or down for proper sight picture. It seemed like my subconcience was adjusting the pistol to where it needed to be , before it got to the target. I know this goes agains conventional thinking, but it sure felt better to me. Looking for opinions on this, or if anyone has ever noticed this. Seems like something BE would talk about. Thanks for any input. Dave

This post has been edited by waxman: 03 April 2009 - 01:01 PM

[Flexmoney]

Good observations...keep them coming.


The eyes lead the way.

I suppose we often repeat to "snap the head" because some folks seem to forget that it's on a swivel...and keep it locked-chin forward.

Really though, where the eyes go, the head follows.

[Pat Harrison]

It also depends on where the next target is. If its right next to the previous one, or very close the eyes will do the work. If it is 130 degrees away, or the first target when turning and drawing, a head snap will make a difference. Between those two extremes there is a lot of room for experimentation to see what is right for the individual. I think the eyes should always lead, even with a head snap the eyes will still get there first and direct the head, then the body onto the target. The human body is an amazing thing, all it's parts can work together of individually as needed to solve a problem. The interesting thing is finding out how to allow it to do this without directing it with preconcieved ideas.

[Jay870]

For targets within a an array I try to "snap the eyes", and for transitioning between arrays, or on an a turning draw I think "snap the head".

[Morgan]

waxman, on Apr 3 2009, 02:00 PM, said:

I was much smooter, and felt faster...

Feeling faster isn't the same as being faster. Put it on the clock.

I find that head snapping on medium to wide transitions is faster and more accurate, especially if you can stay relaxed.

-Morgan FY51526

[waxman]

This is something I plan on doing. Thanks for the replies

[benos]

waxman, on Apr 3 2009, 01:00 PM, said:

Just got in from a pretty long practice session dedicated 100% to transitions. I found that I was much smooter, and felt faster, not snappng my head to the next target. I know most say to snap the head, which is what i was forcing myself to do. What I ended up doing, is after my shot breaks, I started the gun towards the target, but lead it quite a ways with my eyes. I arrived at the target with the eyes, just as the gun was comming onto the target. I found that the sights were ALOT easier to aquire, and there was alot less jerkyness from stopping the pistol and bringing it up or down for proper sight picture. It seemed like my subconcience was adjusting the pistol to where it needed to be , before it got to the target. I know this goes agains conventional thinking, but it sure felt better to me. Looking for opinions on this, or if anyone has ever noticed this. Seems like something BE would talk about. Thanks for any input. Dave

I cover that fairly well in Beyond Fundamentals. There's hardly ever an acquisition situation in which it's best to move your head. Or in other words, once your upper body is in its Index position, don't move anything but your eyes.

The only scenario in which it might be best to move your head would be if the next target is NOT in your peripheral vision, as you are shooting the current target.
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[Jake Di Vita]

As others have said. Put it on the clock - the timer doesn't lie.

I'll bet you are moving the gun considerably slower when only slightly leading with the eyes - and that could be faster for you right now than snapping the eyes. However, with consistent practice and a mature snap/transition, it will blow any other method away.

Work at it.

Also, FWIW, the only time I swivel my head is when the target is not in my peripheral vision, as Brian said.

[sherpa]

Perhaps slightly different from the original question, this pertains to where your focus is during transitions.

I learned from one professional instructor/shooter that he keeps his eyes on the sights at ALL times, even on transitions (at the same shooting spot, regardless of angle) after firing the 2nd shot on a target. He finds it faster than looking for the next target then back to the sights. His only exception is when he has to run to another position.

[Singlestack]

sherpa, on Apr 9 2009, 08:54 AM, said:

Perhaps slightly different from the original question, this pertains to where your focus is during transitions.

I learned from one professional instructor/shooter that he keeps his eyes on the sights at ALL times, even on transitions (at the same shooting spot, regardless of angle) after firing the 2nd shot on a target. He finds it faster than looking for the next target then back to the sights. His only exception is when he has to run to another position.

I've tried that. I overshoot the index when I do. The gun stops where I am looking and stops much smoother when I lead with my eyes.

I'll add that is the first time I have read about a pro advocating that method.

[Pat Harrison]

I kind of wondered the same thing. I know Todd J. for one would instruct letting the sights return to the same target poa after the second shot as part of the followthrough to make sure you didn't pull off the target rushing to get to the next one, but you still lead with the eyes to get to the next one. You have to find the target to get the gun there.

[benos]

Singlestack, on Apr 9 2009, 06:09 AM, said:

sherpa, on Apr 9 2009, 08:54 AM, said:

Perhaps slightly different from the original question, this pertains to where your focus is during transitions.

I learned from one professional instructor/shooter that he keeps his eyes on the sights at ALL times, even on transitions (at the same shooting spot, regardless of angle) after firing the 2nd shot on a target. He finds it faster than looking for the next target then back to the sights. His only exception is when he has to run to another position.

I've tried that. I overshoot the index when I do. The gun stops where I am looking and stops much smoother when I lead with my eyes.

I'll add that is the first time I have read about a pro advocating that method.

Right. Visually, it just doesn't work.

You cannot quickly move and precisely stop the sights on the next target if your focus never leaves your front sight. However, your eyes can find the next target and get back on the sights so quickly that it might appear that you never left the sights.

It's easier to "see" if you're not shooting. So try it with your finger instead of your pistol. Point your finger at a spot on the wall, then focus on your finger nail. Locate another spot (target) peripherally, then be sure you are looking right at your finger nail. Then while looking right at your finger nail, move your finger, as quickly as possible, to the next target. You will find it's difficult to do that with any sort of speed or precision.
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[Flexmoney]

sherpa, on Apr 9 2009, 08:54 AM, said:

Perhaps slightly different from the original question, this pertains to where your focus is during transitions.

I learned from one professional instructor/shooter that he keeps his eyes on the sights at ALL times, even on transitions (at the same shooting spot, regardless of angle) after firing the 2nd shot on a target. He finds it faster than looking for the next target then back to the sights. His only exception is when he has to run to another position.

No good.


I merely have to look at the timer and see somebody's transition times between targets to tell if they are doing that.

[sherpa]

I told him the same thing and that I found it hard to move and precisely stop the sights on the next target if my focus was always on the front sight. I said perhaps it required some practice, but since I found it very difficult, I posted it first to see others points on it. He said it works for him and makes him perform better. Some highlights of his explanation:
'If I am shooting a static string (shooting while not moving), my visual focus remains on the front sight. I don't take my eyes off of the sight, locate the target then go back to the sight. I track the sight during recoil after the first shot. After the second (or when I have to move to the next target), the process is the same except I drive the gun to the next target during recoil. My visual focus is on the front sight. I have already seen the layout of the targets, so I know where they are, I don't need to locate them. I keep the front sight in focus, drive the gun to the next target stopping when the sight is where I want the shot to be, then press the trigger. Keep in mind, you can see things even if they aren't in focus. I see the target, but the front sight is in focus.'

'...your subconcious mind has a tendency to center the sight if you allow it to. That is why I say that this is more a function of concentration than vision. It will take some time, a lot of effort and practice to get there, but you can get there if you really desire to...'.

Although it seems I understand his method perfectly, perhaps I may be wrong?

[Bongo Boy]

sherpa, on Apr 9 2009, 08:36 PM, said:

...I don't take my eyes off of the sight, locate the target then go back to the sight.

This seems contradictory, to me. When one says I "Locate the target", it means the focus of the eye is on the target field. I've moved from sight focus to 'what the hell am I shooting next' focus. I may me misinterpreting. To me it isn't likely you can know next target without a change in focus. Sort of like coming out of holster first shot...sure, you're looking to get sight picture on target immediately, but where did the target blur come from? I have to think there was some time in space when yo put focus on target, then came back to Reality. Am I wrong?

[benos]

For me, when I say "locate the target," I mean to just be aware of where it is. And there's a couple levels to that. While you are shooting target 1, you can be aware, peripherally, of where target 2 is. Then as you gun heads toward target 2, you look at or towards it - you may or may not actually shift your focus to it, depending on its distance, and how close it was to target 1.

For quick, precise transitions, a critical factor is: Do you remember seeing (whether or not you focused on it) the upcoming target BEFORE the sights landed on it? Ask yourself that for each target in a string.

[Holshot]

Awesome stuff!

I've been seeing something lately that is a little different, at least for me. Previously, I broke transitions down to 2 types. First, riding the sight and found that there are times to do that. Second, snapping the eyes to the next target and indexing the body/gun to your eyes and there are times to do that.

Now I've added a third type and forgive my inability to correctly describe what I'm seeing. When I'm in the act of shooting, I'm pushing for that crystal clear FS picture, a lift and a return. For a year or two, that's all I've been after. Recently, I've started to train myself to see the next target. I mean really see it compared to what I was doing before which was seeing nothing but the FS and the target I was engaging. Now that I can see both I keep my index, explode my body/gun/eyes to the next target, prep on the way and often the shot breaks so soon for an A it rattles me. I can tell if I pull it off because I'll cut 2 tenths off of my swings each time which equals big time overall.

Now, you know you can't focus your eyes on 2 points at the same time but try to focus your eyes on your FS and part of your mind on the next target that you pick up in your periphery. I've been working on this for the last 3 months and I've seen a huge improvement in classifier percentage (last 3 in the 90's) and had a small string of wins/high places. And it feels like it happened all at once.

I am truly seeing more than ever - amazing. And I apologize again for not being able to better verbalize what I am doing. If you try it, it takes a while for your mind to get around what you're trying to do, don't give up. You'll have an AHA moment soon enough. You guys that are already there, if I said something blatantly wrong please correct me as I'm still working on the details.

[nphd2000]

When I first started shooting with a "dot" gun I was following the dot like the bouncing ball "cursor" on the bad sing-a-long show or commercials. It seemed realy slow and it was. Finally at a steel match (PSA) I started snapping my eyes to the next piece of steel and low and behold the dot would come dancing across the steel I was looking at. The amazing thing was when the dot was on the target I would break the shot and move on. At the end of the stage I would look back across the steel targets and they were all down.

[benos]

Holshot, on Jul 16 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

Awesome stuff!

I've been seeing something lately that is a little different, at least for me. Previously, I broke transitions down to 2 types. First, riding the sight and found that there are times to do that. Second, snapping the eyes to the next target and indexing the body/gun to your eyes and there are times to do that.

Now I've added a third type and forgive my inability to correctly describe what I'm seeing. When I'm in the act of shooting, I'm pushing for that crystal clear FS picture, a lift and a return. For a year or two, that's all I've been after. Recently, I've started to train myself to see the next target. I mean really see it compared to what I was doing before which was seeing nothing but the FS and the target I was engaging. Now that I can see both I keep my index, explode my body/gun/eyes to the next target, prep on the way and often the shot breaks so soon for an A it rattles me. I can tell if I pull it off because I'll cut 2 tenths off of my swings each time which equals big time overall.

Now, you know you can't focus your eyes on 2 points at the same time but try to focus your eyes on your FS and part of your mind on the next target that you pick up in your periphery. I've been working on this for the last 3 months and I've seen a huge improvement in classifier percentage (last 3 in the 90's) and had a small string of wins/high places. And it feels like it happened all at once.

I am truly seeing more than ever - amazing. And I apologize again for not being able to better verbalize what I am doing. If you try it, it takes a while for your mind to get around what you're trying to do, don't give up. You'll have an AHA moment soon enough. You guys that are already there, if I said something blatantly wrong please correct me as I'm still working on the details.

You are getting into some good stuff there. Nice work.

My only comment would be regarding

Quote

First, riding the sight and found that there are times to do that.

If you were talking about mulitple targets, from my experience I'd say there are only a couple scenarios in which that would be the most effective technique.

The first would be if you were shooting a group of full sized USPSA target real close to you and real close to each other. Most shooters would look at the targets and "point shoot" them. But you can look right at the front sight and locate the A'boxes peripherally. It's very hard to do because the natural tendency is to just point and blast away as fast as you can. But if you can force yourself to stay right on the front site for those targets you might be surprised at the amount of certainty you can shoot those targets with.

In the second scenario, it's more that it "feels" like you are riding the sight - for plates on a plate rack. The next target is so close to the one you just shot, you can shoot the rack and it will feel like you looked at right at the sight the whole time. But if you pay really close attention to your vision, you'll notice that you do look away from the sight ever so slightly "toward" the upcoming plate.

After training the Steel Challenge stages for 20 years, near the end I had a fairly honed method of "seeing" each stage. Instead of seeing and shooting one target at a time... At the buzzer, As I was looking at the first target, I was also aware of all the rest of the targets, peripherally. Even during the draw and shot, I'd still keep aware of the rest of the targets. Then as I moved to the next target, target 1 would "drop out" of my awareness, but I'd still keep aware of the rest of the targets as I was moving to and shooting target 2. And so on until the end.

That was very difficult to learn to do. Especially in the match. But when it all clicked it was pretty cool.
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[Pat Harrison]

My shooting partner and I found something similar when shooting shootoff against each other. While we would be focused on the target we were shooting, we would be aware of where the other shooter was on his string and would dial up or down our speed as needed. And by speed I mean to refer to our visual accepability neccessary to complete the string without losing.

[benos]

Pat Harrison, on Jul 17 2009, 05:34 PM, said:

And by speed I mean to refer to our visual accepability neccessary to complete the string without losing.

[Bongo Boy]

benos, on Jul 16 2009, 06:13 PM, said:

For me, when I say "locate the target," I mean to just be aware of where it is. And there's a couple levels to that...For quick, precise transitions, a critical factor is: Do you remember seeing (whether or not you focused on it) the upcoming target BEFORE the sights landed on it? Ask yourself that for each target in a string.

Ah, multitasking/parallel processing. Man I suck at that!

Seeing IPSC and IDPA shooting as having at least some practical potential beyond the game itself, it seems like you'd want to practice looking at, focusing on and actually seeing the environment around you. Threats and non-threats that can't be completely predicted or seen while engaging the current threat would help with that.

This post has been edited by Bongo Boy: 02 August 2009 - 10:28 AM

[Justsomeguy]

This is all very interesting. I just ordered a range timer so I could start doing some drills... specifically the one Brian mentioned in another thread about the three targets about 1 yard apart and doing a single shot on each target 3 times in succession. The point of the drill, I think, is to train just this sort of "eyes first" kind of acquisition. That was supposed to be "Part 1" of the exercise, with part 2 to follow after you tried it. It's a very old thread, so I don't know if I'll ever see the part 2 thing, but on the face of it, it sounds like the perfect drill to start off training the eyes for transitions. But, eummm, I forgot the distance it was supposed to be at. 10 yards I think. I hope that's right 'cause my timer is supposed to come in a day or two and I really want to try this.

[benos]

Justsomeguy, on Aug 3 2009, 03:20 AM, said:

This is all very interesting. I just ordered a range timer so I could start doing some drills... specifically the one Brian mentioned in another thread about the three targets about 1 yard apart and doing a single shot on each target 3 times in succession. The point of the drill, I think, is to train just this sort of "eyes first" kind of acquisition. That was supposed to be "Part 1" of the exercise, with part 2 to follow after you tried it. It's a very old thread, so I don't know if I'll ever see the part 2 thing, but on the face of it, it sounds like the perfect drill to start off training the eyes for transitions. But, eummm, I forgot the distance it was supposed to be at. 10 yards I think. I hope that's right 'cause my timer is supposed to come in a day or two and I really want to try this.

I still PM members Part 2 upon request.
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