[CHA-LEE]

I would like to get some feedback on the below video. This was a pretty fast stage, 32 rounds and nearly all targets were fully open with a few that had hard cover on the bottom portions. All of the shots were pretty close and easy with only one that was a little further away (about 10 yards). I was able to complete the stage in 14.71 seconds down 12 points (22 A’s, 8 C’s, and 2 D’s) with a HF of 9.92. The stage winner finished the stage in 13.60 seconds down 7 points (26 A’s, 5 C’s, and 1 D) with a HF of 11.17. I would like to know where I am losing a whole second on this stage. When I watch the video I see that I am stopping to shoot the target at the end when I shouldn’t stop and that I slow down to shoot the last two shot because I am in a funky stance/angle. But other than that it seems pretty solid. Are those two areas really worth a whole second of time lost? Is my shooting speed too slow? Movement too slow? Any input is welcome.

A GM in Open traversed the stage in 13.57 seconds with a HF of 10.90 but I didn’t expect much of a time difference in open given that most of the targets are simply point shooting since they are so close and you are just mowing through the rounds. The guy who won the stage in Limited is a super fast shooter so this stage catered to his ultra fast trigger pull abilities.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=V_yRe0akPMs

[fourtrax]

RO was in my way...... I thought you looked pretty good, I wish you had the video of the other two guys to compare. I try to "flow like water" I suspect on video I may appear a little choppy. Do you try to flow?

[bkeeler]

In the second shooting position I would have taken the target on the right first(shot it right to left and unwind and back out of that position). Same thing for position three. (shot it right to left and unwind and back out of that position) You already know about the wide open target going to position 4. That is all can tell from the video.
Be smooth.



BK

This post has been edited by bkeeler: 03 March 2009 - 06:05 PM

[mlmiller1]

bkeeler, on Mar 3 2009, 06:59 PM, said:

In the second shooting position I would have taken the target on the right first(shot it right to left and unwind and back out of that position). Same thing for position three.(shoot it right to left and start moving out of position). That is all can tell from the video.




BK

Yeah, those both look as though that would have been faster. You also stopped to shoot the fourth area target. Also, you were really deep in areas 2 & 3 but it may have required that, hard to tell from the video. Still looked like you would have beat me!
MLM

[Lee King]

You came out of the 2nd to last position, moved to the target on the right, gun down, planted your feet, brought the gun up, hit the target, then moved to the last position on the left. Might could've shaved some time having the gun up earlier, taking that right target in those steps instead of planting, then turning to the last port. But I can't really see what you saw coming out of the 2nd to last pos. on the left.

[AlamoShooter]

I shoot mostly open and you are faster than I am with the trigger. small places in your upper body tilt over you belt side ways (center of mass) the last single target just before the last position looks like that must have been a tight shot? you all but stopped to point at it extending and dropping your head to the gun, thin moved into the last shooing position. I would have liked to take it sooner and cut the corner to the last position.
It looks to me like the stage was all about postion on exit
I don't shoot very fast , but I keep up with my feet, -some times-. Again I don't think I could have shot it that fast,
But I don't know do I

This post has been edited by AlamoShooter: 03 March 2009 - 06:19 PM

[bkeeler]

Just noticed this also. Why did you go to the second port to shoot the first set of targets after the draw?

Could you draw and shoot through the first port? If so you could have saved that movement drawing going to the second port.


BK

[XRe]

At the very least, you lost a second between the last two positions. Hesitations about getting into them. Also, getting out of the 2nd position (with the reload) was a little slow.

In addition - that target you shoot on the right before the last position? If you'd have taken that on the move as you were advancing toward the last position, rather than running up and stopping (and punching the gun at the target), you could've retained a lot of momentum around the corner (leading to a better and faster entry for that last position).

Between those things, probably a second to a second and a half, all told....

[AlamoShooter]

XRe, on Mar 3 2009, 07:36 PM, said:

At the very least, you lost a second between the last two positions. Hesitations about getting into them. Also, getting out of the 2nd position (with the reload) was a little slow.

In addition - that target you shoot on the right before the last position? If you'd have taken that on the move as you were advancing toward the last position, rather than running up and stopping (and punching the gun at the target), you could've retained a lot of momentum around the corner (leading to a better and faster entry for that last position).

Between those things, probably a second to a second and a half, all told....

Thats what I said but said better +1

[XRe]

AlamoShooter, on Mar 3 2009, 07:43 PM, said:

Thats what I said

I'd have pointed that out if I'd actually have read your whole post before I responded heh heh....

[AlamoShooter]

XRe, on Mar 3 2009, 07:48 PM, said:

AlamoShooter, on Mar 3 2009, 07:43 PM, said:

Thats what I said

I'd have pointed that out if I'd actually have read your whole post before I responded heh heh....

That makes it an even better observation, Did you think the balance over the belt made it slower for him to get out of positon? I know its a small thing but still a thing.

[CHA-LEE]

Thanks a bunch for the feedback, I really appreciate it. Let me break down the stage a little more. All of the barrel shooting positions had targets to the extreme right so you had to get all the way in there to shoot them. The only real "Choices" you had on the stage were which port to engage the first three targets, what order to engage the targets in each barrel position, and when to engage the stand alone target at the end of the stage on the outside of the wall. All of the other movement and shooting positions were forced by the location of the targets. You could only access 4 targets from each barrel position and no where else. So there were no choices of engaging more or less targets from one single shooting position, such as picking close and fast targets or long and slow targets mixed in the same shooting position.

fourtrax> Did I feel like I was flowing through the stage? For the most part yes. The only part that felt forced was engaging the stand alone target on the outside of the wall. I felt like I really wasn't prepared on where in my forward movement I should engage the target and before I knew it I had gone too far and had to stop and turn back a little to get to the final shooting position.

bkeeler> I thought about driving hard into the shooting positions and then shooting my way out from right to left but to me it seemed like I would be doubling my movement doing that. I had to get all the way into each shooting position to access the target on the far right so why not shoot the targets as I am moving into the final position? At my current skill level, I also feel more confident in shooting moving forward verses shooting while moving backwards. I actually flip flopped for a while on whether to shoot it from left to right as I entered or to enter hard and shoot from right to left as I exit. I finally came to the realization that I had to get into and out of each shooting position quickly and if I shot it from left to right my upper body would be naturally turning to the right to exit the shooting position. If I engaged the targets from right to left I would have to unwind my upper body to turn back round and get back out of the shooting position. I wish that I could have shot the stage again engaging the targets from right to left, but we had a ton of shooters that day and one of the log jams was that stage so there wasn't any down time for the stage for me to give it a second try.

AlamoShooter> Can you explain what you are seeing on moving my body over my belt sideways? Like my feet are leading my movement and my upper body is trying to catch up?

bkeeler> Why go to the second port on the first set of targets? Well, first I had to get into the shooting area, as they started you outside the shooting area. So I figured why take one step to enter the shooting area and stop, take the time to draw, then engage the first three targets through the first port all while standing at the top of the stage. It made more sense to me to get moving right away and place myself in a good almost double shooting position making the first three targets and the first barrel targets accessible from essentially one shooting position. Doing this also masked my draw time because I was moving to the first shooting position while drawing and had the gun up and ready to rumble once I was in position on the second port. I have been trying hard to minimize shooting positions within a stage and going to the second port first was my best attempt at eliminating an extra shooting position.

XRe> Yeah my movement turns into "Turtle Pace" when I have to perform a reload on the move. Looking at the video I should have dropped my mag as soon as I brought the gun back after finishing the final shot in the first barrel position. That way I could have had the new mag in and gun up and ready a lot sooner for the next barrel position. I was still seating the mag when I should have been driving into the next shooting position with the gun up. The last target on the outside should have been engaged on the move before making the turn for the last shooting position. Like I said above, I think that was just poor planning on my part. I kept seeing it as I exited the shooting positions and in my mind I kept saying "Not yet, Not yet" but then before I knew it, I was late on engaging it. Next time I will just let it happen when it happens. Any time I try to force an outcome it turns out a lot more clunky and slower than I want. If I just take an approach of picking shooting positions and shooting targets as I see them it flows a lot better for me.

This post has been edited by CHA-LEE: 03 March 2009 - 10:03 PM

[eerw]

Charlie..

good stage..


couple of things I saw..the reload could have been sooner..as soon as you shot the last target in that array. instead you moved right, cleared the barrel and then reloaded. going into the last array you planted and shot the lone target, instead of keeping your feet moving and shooting it.

talking with Glenn..he identified getting to the first targer, the transistion from T3 to T4 ( three through the port to the next array) , shooting that lone target as the key spots on the stage.

Glenn shot it pretty smooth, Jimmy said he pushed to shoot it in 13.10, my mag stuck and I had to strip it out so it hung me up a bit getting my shots on the lone target.

I think also was key was how much the last targets in each of those positions caused the shooter to stick. many shooters ended up planting and eating time getting out of the position.

[XRe]

I think what Jamie's getting at re: body over belt is that you tend to stand straight up and lean out over your feet to the side for those last targets in the arrays. That's a relatively off-balance position, and harder to get back out of. It can be done, of course - a little different technique (the drop step) helps. If you came in lower, you can lean out but not be out past your base to get to those targets (ie, your chest and head end up more directly over a foot) - you stay in better balance and can exit the position harder.

Also - re: the reload. That's a tricky place to reload out of and not get hung up in a wall or something. A technique I've been playing with that seems to work well for those is a delayed load. Drop the mag right away, and pick the new mag out of the pouch as you launch out of position. Once you clear the corner - an action that requires some attention - then stuff the mag smoothly as you accelerate down the stage. You have a limited amount of attention "resource", and spreading it too thin at any one moment can cause you to hit the wall, fumble the load, or any number of other things... Something to try out, anyway... Obviously, it works in some cases, and not in others (like, say, if you had to engage a target right as you cleared that corner...) - in those, you want to nail the load right away as you launch, but be certain of your movement...

[bkeeler]

CHA-LEE, on Mar 3 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

Thanks a bunch for the feedback, I really appreciate it. Let me break down the stage a little more. All of the barrel shooting positions had targets to the extreme right so you had to get all the way in there to shoot them. The only real "Choices" you had on the stage were which port to engage the first three targets, what order to engage the targets in each barrel position, and when to engage the stand alone target at the end of the stage on the outside of the wall. All of the other movement and shooting positions were forced by the location of the targets. You could only access 4 targets from each barrel position and no where else. So there were no choices of engaging more or less targets from one single shooting position, such as picking close and fast targets or long and slow targets mixed in the same shooting position.


bkeeler> I thought about driving hard into the shooting positions and then shooting my way out from right to left but to me it seemed like I would be doubling my movement doing that. I had to get all the way into each shooting position to access the target on the far right so why not shoot the targets as I am moving into the final position? At my current skill level, I also feel more confident in shooting moving forward verses shooting while moving backwards. I actually flip flopped for a while on whether to shoot it from left to right as I entered or to enter hard and shoot from right to left as I exit. I finally came to the realization that I had to get into and out of each shooting position quickly and if I shot it from left to right my upper body would be naturally turning to the right to exit the shooting position. If I engaged the targets from right to left I would have to unwind my upper body to turn back round and get back out of the shooting position. I wish that I could have shot the stage again engaging the targets from right to left, but we had a ton of shooters that day and one of the log jams was that stage so there wasn't any down time for the stage for me to give it a second try.

You just found something to work on in practice.

bkeeler> Why go to the second port on the first set of targets? Well, first I had to get into the shooting area, as they started you outside the shooting area. So I figured why take one step to enter the shooting area and stop, take the time to draw, then engage the first three targets through the first port all while standing at the top of the stage. It made more sense to me to get moving right away and place myself in a good almost double shooting position making the first three targets and the first barrel targets accessible from essentially one shooting position. Doing this also masked my draw time because I was moving to the first shooting position while drawing and had the gun up and ready to rumble once I was in position on the second port. I have been trying hard to minimize shooting positions within a stage and going to the second port first was my best attempt at eliminating an extra shooting position.

Ok that makes sense.

BK

[bkeeler]

FWIW.

Just another thought. Even if you took the second off your time you would have been closer to the guy that won the stage but you would not have won. Why? Points man points.

Keep it up!

BK

[CHA-LEE]

Eerw> I am a little confused on your comment about your transition from T3 to T4 comment. Are you saying that Glenn promoted the idea of going to the second port to access the first three targets because it set you out better for the preceding shooting position? I also would like to know when you guys engaged the stand alone target at the end. Did you wait to engage it on the move as you were heading to the last shooting position? Or did you engage it earlier in the stage? I did see that some shooters chose to engage the stand alone target from the top of the stage after engaging the first three targets, but most of those guys where Single Stack shooters and I figured they did it to keep their reloads to a minimum.

XRe> I understand now what you are saying about leaning over the belt. Each of the barrel shooting positions had a fault line that you had to stay behind and you had to get your upper body past the fault line to shoot the target on the extreme right. So at least for this stage I don’t think being any lower would have helped. I will keep that in mind though as I have seen myself using poor foot placement when getting into a shooting position then I am reeling trying to get my upper body moved out of the shooting position. I also like your idea of a delayed mag change. Dropping the mag right away then getting around the corner fast, then putting the new mag in makes a lot more sense. But as you said, that only works in pure movement situations where you don’t have to engage targets right away after exiting the shooting position.

Bkeeler> Amen brother!!! Practice, Practice, Practice!!! I have a long ways to go man. My main focus that match was to keep my gun up in my face while moving and as you can see, I was still not able to do that all the time. Hopefully I can get these things ingrained sooner or later.

[SA Friday]

There comes a time in everyones progression where 'movement' clicks. All of a sudden you realize the large time consumers are not your problem because you have those things ironed out and the accumulation of little time savers are what's costing you the next step up your shooting. When you can see the things that are costing you the .2 to seconds here and the .3 seconds there then you will be on the road to the next level of shooting.

Todd see's these all the time. Practice with him some time, and you will see what he works is the little things that are costing him the accumulated one second per stage. 100 rounds and 50 box exits, stuff like that. It can be boring, but it's vital stuff.

[eerw]

Charlie..

yes..we went to the second port so the transition from the 3 in the window to the next 3 was continuous..
the lone target was shot going into the last position.

[XRe]

CHA-LEE, on Mar 4 2009, 11:15 AM, said:

XRe> I understand now what you are saying about leaning over the belt. Each of the barrel shooting positions had a fault line that you had to stay behind and you had to get your upper body past the fault line to shoot the target on the extreme right. So at least for this stage I don't think being any lower would have helped.

You're not getting what I'm saying Granted, its hard to explain in text, but super easy to demonstrate in person Try this - find a wall in the house that you can look around the left side, simulating the match situation. Keep your left foot back behind the wall about a foot or so, insuring that you have to lean out around the corner to see a target that would be at least straight down range, kind of like this:

target -->  %|
             |
             |
             |
             ------------
you -->       **

Stand pretty upright as you were, feet around shoulder width, and lean out to engage the target. Ok, you're now "out over your belt" as AlamoShooter was getting at. This is an awkward, off balance position - or, it should be, if you've set your feet enough back behind the corner. Your center of gravity (CG) is actually to the left of your left foot, now, which is why it feels off balance. This is a hard position to get out of...

Now - keep your left foot in the same spot. Bend your left knee (a lot), and allow your right foot to move out to the right (and possibly a little behind. You should be about a foot or more lower than you were before. While your head is out past your belt, your CG is now over your left foot, instead of out to the left of it.You should still be able to make the lean just fine, though. Getting out of this position is a little easier, as you're not fighting that CG as much.

If that's not clear, I'll try to shoot some pics at some point

[Ramas]

Too mutch leg shuffling. Every step cost you time and hits.

[CHA-LEE]

XRe> That makes total sense!!! I wasn’t thinking of it that way before. I will give those two scenarios a try tonight when I get home. The one thing I have learned the most about competition shooting is that some times the best way of doing things feels really awkward at first, then once you do it a while you can't imagine doing it any other way. A perfect example is the thumbs forward grip with the support hand wrist being camed forward and high up on the frame. That is super strange when you first do it, but now it feels strange trying to grip the pistol any other way.

[CHA-LEE]

XRe> I gave your recommendation a try last night and lowering myself about a foot as I reach around a wall does allow me to be more planed and get out of the position faster. As expected, it “feels” a little strange doing it that way but some solid practice doing it should solve that. Thanks again for the tip!!!

[fourtrax]

I'm tall, 6'4" and the not getting low enough is really hard for me. When I took a movement class with Matt Cheely he pointed this out to me and XRe is right on. It is quicker to move from XRe's described position than a more upright one. Now like you, I just need to practice, practice, practice.