[topgunpilot20]

I've been looking at picking up a Saiga 12, but having to load and fire a slug in the middle of a run seems to be a good way for stage designers to mess with the magazine fed shotgun crowd. Anyone figure out an effective way of doing this?

[kurtm]

I am sorry for the thread drift, and I just really want to know. I AM NOT trying to stir anything up, but why is a select slug drill viewed as "messing" with magazine fed shotguns? In practical applications selecting a slug is a necessary skill. Buckshot patterns get too big past about 30 yards to be effective. Not always do we have a choice in how or at what distance a target is presented. It is quite possible to have to shoot a close target, only to suddenly need to shoot a farther target. Why is this reality viewed as "messing" with magazine fed shotguns?

To answer your query, I would imagine that you need to do a speed mag change and rack the bolt to chamber a slug from your slug magazine. Now I would say that a match designer shouldn't put in a bunch of shot, then slug, then shot targets, because after the first transition in practical applications most every one would stay with the slugs...but that is just me, and then in that scenario I would say they WERE messing with the mag fed guns. KurtM

[Carlos]

Stage designers could do that. Some probably will - out of an irrational hate for the Saiga magazine fed shotgun.

Why would they hate a shotgun that can be reloaded more quickly? I dunno - probably the same reason some revolver shooters refer to mag-fed semi auto handguns as "bottom-feeders" (I shoot wheelguns and "bottom-feeders" btw).

As far as select load as a required part of a stage, Helmie from I-SHOT incorporated that into an outlaw/IDPA shotgun match he designed back at the old Shooters Paradise near D.C. before it burned down in 2007; several LEO types mentioned that they had been trained on it. I guess it is authentically "tactical" if it matters to anyone.

But no worries: if the stage designers insist on select load as a way to give a competitive advantage to tube-fed guns, then it is a simple matter to design a "magazine interupt" for the Saiga (even the Krag or 1903 had one of these simple devices)- and it would be an allowed modification since they have banished the Saiga to Open anyway - at least in any of the dozen or so sets of rules for 3gun/multigun.

I doubt that the Saiga will be allowed into the U.S. much into our future - but I'll stop there. Back on topic: select load and the Saiga.

[busyhawk]

Ok, you Saiga thrashers...

To answer the original question from topgunpilot20;

If there is either a single or whatever slug target in the middle of the stage then just load the magazine correct in the first place. If you think you will need another slug round just in case then load 2 slugs together. All Open Shotguns have to load the same in this situation so just do the math!

I can't wait to see all the Saigas at the MGM Iron-Man, since you can have one Open gun in Tactical I would shoot the Saiga Open SG just to save time and I really don't need a Open Rifle. Since I am still nursing a broken leg and can't put any weight on it until the middle of April I am planning on working the MGM again but will not shoot it.

At the R and R Multi-Gun this year they are allowing the Saiga in Tactical (special class) and some of the local shooters are already practicing so look out.

Saiga's are just another platform to have fun with...if you don't like them then go back to the black powder days:-)

Isn't this fun?

Welcome to the Forum Topgunpilot20! Great question and please don't let Kurtm get you down...he is just another Saiga mis-understander.

Back at you all!

RLTW,

Scott

This post has been edited by busyhawk: 03 March 2009 - 09:28 AM

[SinistralRifleman]

Depending on the stage and the number of slug targets to be engaged I will either load my mag accordingly, or switch mags as needed. Blind stage, no good option unless I can sling the shotgun and shoot the slug plates with my pistol. The local rifle/shotgun match at Rio Salado always has a stage with 2-4 slugs at the start, or sometimes the end. When slugs are at the start I usually just load the minimum required and then the rest of the magazine with birdshot. If slugs are at the end of the stage or there are more than 4 targets to be engaged, I just switch mags. Another local 3 Gun match at Phoenix Rod and Gun always has a long shotgun course with 20-25 bird shot and 2-4 slugs at the end. At that match I just switch mags at the end of the stage.

At Ironman they will often have multiple slug targets that have to be engaged all at the same time, or few challenging shots so you will be shooting extra slugs anyway and it worth changing mags.

[kurtm]

Now Scott...HOW can you say I am a magazine fed shotgun mis-understander when Trapr and I ALLOW mag fed shotguns in TACTICAL/Standard Semi-Auto at our match?? Seems to me that if I "mis-understood" Saigas/Merlots so darn much WHY would we have ever allowed them in Tactical? If you go back and do some research..now that you have time, you will find I have been one of the BIGGEST proponents of mag fed shotguns in limited and tactical.

A select slug is very viable drill....for EVERY shotgun type be it a side by side, over under, single shot, pump, semi-auto, belt fed....etc. I am not trying to "get anyone down", I just want to know why owning a Saiga..etc. means you would be immune to select slug situations? I am baffled at this much, the same way I am baffled at you thinking I don't like mag fed shotguns. KurtM

[ronswin]

I pretty much follow Sinistral in slug drills. I'll either count the shotshells and place the slugs in the magazine according to the target layout, or drop the mag of shotshells and transition to a 5-round mag with slugs only. The last technique is effective to prevent slugs on non-slug targets avoiding possible DQ's. I use a last round bolt hold kit on my Saiga-12 and have run the mag of shotshells dry and single loaded slugs into the chamber when a slug or two is the only requirement.

[busyhawk]

Kurtm,

Now just because you allow a Saiga doesn't mean you like them...I will remember to bring some Ivory soap the next time I am around you, for your sensitive skin:-)

I was just referring to you for not really answering the question that topgunpilot20 had and you had to drift...

I have to remember it's all about you.

RLTW,

Scott

[Carlos]

busyhawk, on Mar 3 2009, 07:25 PM, said:

If there is either a single or whatever slug target in the middle of the stage then just load the magazine correct in the first place.

Under the rules for Select Load, you are not allowed to do that. It would be gaming and incur a FTDR or whatever you are calling it at whatever match.

You have to stop shooting, take the shot shell out of the chamber (usually dump the next round out or pocket it) and then load the slug and then shoot it. That is what "select load" means. It is NOT simply having a slug target in the middle of a stage.

[busyhawk]

Carlos,

Whoah...Where did the select load thing come from? I am unaware of this rule/course of fire type of thing. I have never (RM3G, Johnson, SMM3G, Fort Benning, or any USPSA Multi-gun) heard of such a thing! Can you tell me where to go to get this type of information?

Sincerely,

RLTW,

Scott

[SinistralRifleman]

Never seen such a rule at any competition I have ever been to. (I don't shoot IDPA).

[RiggerJJ]

Scott,
I think that may be a "way back when in SOF" thing... the term "select loading" perfectly defined is as Carlos said...(usually when that rule is used you will see it written in the stage briefing) but I have seen it in recent days.

but we have rolled it over to the now common way allowing the shooters choice of loading a slug when its time OR staging it in the tube at (hopefully) the correct timing.

it might be defined in IDPA rules as Carlos describes, I'm not sure.

As a stage designer/MD I do not "try" to screw the box fed shotguns, but do not "coddle" them either.

As a shooter I am greatly interested in the box feeders, but have not, as of yet, seen them as reliable as tube feeders in all aspects of our game, including "select" slugs or buck in mixed stages. I know they are getting better so this may change soon...

jj

[bigbrowndog]

So by the logic applied on this topic, a mandatory reload on a pistol COF, would be seen as a purposeful attempt to negate the advantage of HiCap pistols??????????????????????

Why do people seem so determined to think that every COF requirement is a direct attack against them and their weapons platform, because stage designers have it out for all the out of the ordinary guns?????????????

As for being able to load them faster, that remains to be seen. I have beaten box mag guns on more than one occassion, I'm quite sure BM shooters can say the same. But to blatantly say that they are faster to load across the board, NO!!!
I also do not recall any of the IPSC Box Mag guys whining about having to perform standard SG courses of fire.

To answer the question, a local shooter that has one has tried single loading and mag changing, neither looks very smooth, but he is new to the platform. He also seems open to ideas, as opposed to some folks that think everyone is out to sabotage them. I helped him on his reloading sequence and showed him how we do a M1A reload instead of the Russian way, which he says works better for him, and is easier on his mags.

As for "liking" them, I do not, but only because I've not seen one that runs or is user friendly.

trapr

[Carlos]

Please google: ""select load" shotgun drill" or some variation of that.

[Wakal]

All platforms are better at some things than they are at others.

Mag fed guns are a "count your shots" drill or a "swap magazines" drill for the select-slug game. If the course of fire is freestyle, counting rounds works just fine. If it is one of those "all slugs staged loose in a saddlebag downrange" (such as the NM 3-Gun did the SECOND year the box mag guys showed up), then it hurts a bit more. Doing the "cowboy action" load through the ejection port is a lot faster than loading, or even changing, magazines.

Oh, well.

The next stage may be a 18-round field course set up naturally (instead of in careful target arrays of "4" with plenty of walk-n-load room by a handloader MD ), and that plays to the strength of the mag fed gun.

Dance with the girl what brought ya, and see what happens




Alex

[SinistralRifleman]

There have been two stages that I have shot at major matches that made the Saiga a distinct disadvantage;

1) Rocky Mountain 3 Gun 2008 Blind Stage, I had to switch mags 5 times. If a reload is for anything less than 2 or 3 shells is required, the Saiga is at a disadvantage. The same stage non-blind would never have given me an issue, I would have loaded my mags accordingly. "You can't load your mags pre-planned for real life, which is what a blind stage simulates"...I wouldn't be using a shotgun IRL in any case.

2) Michigan State Shotgun match: Only one slug allowed in the gun at a time. The bolt does not lock back automatically on my gun, so I had to manually lock the action open, turn the gun upside down, feed the shell in, shoot, repeat. Putting one shell in a magazine at a time and running it that way would likely have been much slower.

I only own a shotgun because I shoot 3 gun. I started using the Saiga-12 because it made shooting 3 gun more fun. If it becomes consistently aggravating to use the gun based on stage design, I'll either switch to something else or go to different matches.

I was recently told the reason a certain match never considered letting Saigas into tactical is because they didn't run well enough. LOL! Shouldn't they welcome the competition in that case, they'll easily trounce the mag fed shooter who is clearing malfunctions???

[SinistralRifleman]

bigbrowndog, on Mar 3 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

Why do people seem so determined to think that every COF requirement is a direct attack against them and their weapons platform, because stage designers have it out for all the out of the ordinary guns?????????????

What made box mag fed shotguns appealing were the courses of fire one typically found up until about 1.5-2 years ago when Saigas started becoming common.

Since then I have seen matches move towards stages with the following:

1) 12 round required or less
2) Slug usage through out the course rather than at the beginning, end, or once in the middle
3) All rounds start loose in a box
4) Only one round in the gun at a time
5) Low ports, roll over prone shooting

If all these things had been common to begin with, the guns likely would not have appeared in competition as much as they are now. The fact they often can only be used in open has limited their popularity in any case.

Are these things a conscious effort to screw with mag feds, or was it a spontaneous effort to make stages more challenging? I dunno. I do know people are resistant to change. Mag fed shooters are scratching their heads at the general changes in stage design, and tube fed shooters certainly don't want their guns to be obsolete over night.

I think we will see more acceptance of mag fed shotguns when one is domestically produced. The CMMG-12 might be the answer to that.

The other thing we might see is people just not want to bother with shotguns at all, and more rifle/pistol matches popping up. The ACTS Rifle/Pistol match in Tucson here regularly attracts as many or more shooters than the local level multi-gun/3-gun matches.

This post has been edited by SinistralRifleman: 03 March 2009 - 02:52 PM

[topgunpilot20]

Wow, lost of replies in this thread. First of all, I don't even own a Saiga. I shoot an 870 when I shoot 3-gun which isn't that often since I usually stick to rifle/pistol matches. The Saigas looked like an interesting shotgun that could make the shotgun stages more fun (I usually just tolerate them to get to the pistol and rifle stages). With competition in mind, I tried to think about the disadvantages the Saiga would have, and loading slugs in the middle of a run was really the only thing I could think of. I was just wondering how Saiga shooters overcame this obvious handicap over tube-fed shooters.

Sounds like the main techniques are either changing mags to a slug only mag or counting rounds. Thanks for the help. I'd appreciate anymore ideas too.

[kurtm]

Scott, I DID answer his question, look below the part where I ask a question......the rest of my post?? Well I was just yanking your leg!...AH...The good one that is.

Sinistral, we see more 12 round and less stages because A LOT of shooters DON'T like to reload their shotguns. I myself haven't noticed any more or less prone or low ports than usual. As for loose ammo starts, I haven't seen one in a long time and that was rifle and pistol....never shotgun, BUT i hear it is coming

J.J. S.O.F. NEVER had a rule about "Select Slug drills". As long as the steel fell you were golden! KurtM

[bigbrowndog]

Sinistral, also on the low round count stages, those are called short or medium length courses, they've always been around in IPSC, here in the US, shotgunners are used to wide open targets and no ports or windows, and such. I again say, the whining has never been heard from the IPSC box mag shooters, as for the all rounds loose in a box, I will say that............................ I intentionally devised that particular stage to give the advantage to the tube fed guys, because I am personally worried about my ability to compete against such a superior platform!!!!!! (sarcasm light now off)

Don't we all start loading our shotguns from a box anyway????????and aren't the rounds loose in that box????????????

it seems to me that the biggest problem is with the fact that the gun won't lock the bolt to the rear easily, I think you guys should dump that POS and get a better gun

if i could get guys to sign up for the HPSC and shoot box fed guns, maybe I could learn something,but so far what I've seen is that they aren't reliable.

trapr

This post has been edited by bigbrowndog: 03 March 2009 - 04:27 PM

[SinistralRifleman]

Trapr, I haven't been to your match so I am not commenting on it. I'd be there this year if not for weeks and weeks worth of back orders. I have an iron sight Saiga waiting around to be used at one of the few matches it is legal in Tactical. I also have the baseplates to cut down the 10 rounders to 8 to make sure I don't accidentally bump myself into open.

[kurtm]

BTW BusyHawk...Dove soap is better, after all it is made with 3/4 moisturizing cream.

I'll call tomorrow. KurtM

[bigbrowndog]

Sinistral, you can only bump yourself to Open by starting with more than 9 rounds, the capacity of the magazine won't matter, in our match.

in fact if you have a drum, after the buzzer goes off, technically you could put it into the gun, and still be in Standard/Tactical!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

trapr

[RiggerJJ]

kurtm, on Mar 3 2009, 03:54 PM, said:

J.J. S.O.F. NEVER had a rule about "Select Slug drills". As long as the steel fell you were golden! KurtM

Wasn't sure, so I guessed, wrong...
we used to do it locally once ina while, before...ya know, before...

but I have seen it, (and I hated it) really I have!!! trust me!

jj

[TRUBL]

Sorry about the thread drift......but, it IS all about Lert Bullor!!

Been thinking long and hard about getting a box fed shotgun, I am also thinking about a magazine retention strap for my "slug" magazine. Or something like that.....seems it could be handy, rather than having to carry 6 or 7 high cap shotgun magazines.

I am sure some guys in a stage like that do the count down method, have a slug mag coupled to a bird shot mag, etc. It seems that when you run what you brung.......you tend to adapt to that platform, takes a little bit, but you either master it.....or try something else. I've been "trying" something else for 15 years now.....someday, I'll get it right.