[lugnut]

Is this legal for IDPA ESP division??? It is 2.9oz. The well is aluminum but the plug is brass I believe. I bought it for USPSA (Limited, G35) but I'd love to try it in IDPA... Here are the specs. I think it will fit in the IDPA box.

GLOCK ICE MAGWELL BLACK ALUMINUM
Magwell/DP/For Glock Small Frame/Ice, Black Insert, Pin, Black, Aluminum, 2.9 oz

[rstandley]

Page 18 of rulebook list any added weight is Illeagal, the brass part would be an added weight.
The gun must fit inside the "box" and total weight of gun with mag. inserted cannot be over 43 oz.

[steel1212]

rstandley, on Feb 25 2009, 02:40 PM, said:

Page 18 of rulebook list any added weight is Illeagal, the brass part would be an added weight.
The gun must fit inside the "box" and total weight of gun with mag. inserted cannot be over 43 oz.

An Ice isn't going to fit the box. The brass makes it the added weight.

[Aristotle]

no

[CDPMatt]

It fits the box and as long as it isn't the "heavy ice" version it's good to go....

[lugnut]

CDPMatt, on Feb 25 2009, 07:22 PM, said:

It fits the box and as long as it isn't the "heavy ice" version it's good to go....

I confirmed it fits in the box- albeit tightly. This is not the "heavy ice" but everyone else seems to disagree it's legal. If it makes the weight limit by a ton I can't see why a brass piece that is used to screw that actual well into would be a problem.... I'd argue that it's not to add weight... no more than the well itself adds weight. Oh well... more confusion.

[door-gunner]

Okay here's the word from Robert Ray on 2-6-09 at 3:20pm EST.

1) On weighted magazines: If you wish to add up 1oz of weight to your stock magazine there is nothing in the current rule book (this will change) that makes it illegal. That is up to the MD's discretion at to if you're trying to skirt the intent of the rule. Robert said "It's not illegal according to the rule book but I am not going to give you a definitive answer but leave that to the MD".

2) On brass magazine floor plates: Once again there is nothing in the current rulebook making this illegal but it is being left up to the MD.

3) On floor plates made of aluminum or steel: They are fine to use as long as they do not add more than 1oz to the stock weight of the magazine. Because of the nature of the game and the amount of abuse magazines used for IDPA can take ("especially if you're shooting over gravel or concrete I have no problem with someone using a floor plate made of aluminum or steel") adding a floor plate to protect the magazines is fine as long as it's not brass. Feelings are that brass is used to add weight to the gun where other metals are used to protect the magazines.

and off the previously discussed subject but a question I asked while I had Robert on the phone regarding magazine wells.

4) Any magazine well that uses a brass plug to retain it in the frame of the pistol is illegal.

This question came up for me when I was looking at magazine wells for a Glock and wanted a Dawson ICE magwell. When I asked the Dawson rep if they made one for the Glock that was secured to the frame with anything but a brass plug they said no. So unless they have changed the way their magazine wells are secured to the frame of Glocks they are not legal for IDPA. When I asked Dawson (about 5 months back) even the lightweight aluminum model was secured to the frame in a Glock using a brass plug.

Thank you all for your input


David

[Glshooter]

Well that sucks about the Magwell. I know lots of guys who use them in IDPA and it has never been an issue, even at major matches.

About the floor plates, which is it? Number 2 contradicts number 3.



2) On brass magazine floor plates: Once again there is nothing in the current rulebook making this illegal

3) adding a floor plate to protect the magazines is fine as long as it's not brass.

[lugnut]

door-gunner, on Mar 6 2009, 08:45 AM, said:

Okay here's the word from Robert Ray on 2-6-09 at 3:20pm EST.

1) On weighted magazines: If you wish to add up 1oz of weight to your stock magazine there is nothing in the current rule book (this will change) that makes it illegal. That is up to the MD's discretion at to if you're trying to skirt the intent of the rule. Robert said "It's not illegal according to the rule book but I am not going to give you a definitive answer but leave that to the MD".

2) On brass magazine floor plates: Once again there is nothing in the current rulebook making this illegal but it is being left up to the MD.

3) On floor plates made of aluminum or steel: They are fine to use as long as they do not add more than 1oz to the stock weight of the magazine. Because of the nature of the game and the amount of abuse magazines used for IDPA can take ("especially if you're shooting over gravel or concrete I have no problem with someone using a floor plate made of aluminum or steel") adding a floor plate to protect the magazines is fine as long as it's not brass. Feelings are that brass is used to add weight to the gun where other metals are used to protect the magazines.

and off the previously discussed subject but a question I asked while I had Robert on the phone regarding magazine wells.

4) Any magazine well that uses a brass plug to retain it in the frame of the pistol is illegal.

This question came up for me when I was looking at magazine wells for a Glock and wanted a Dawson ICE magwell. When I asked the Dawson rep if they made one for the Glock that was secured to the frame with anything but a brass plug they said no. So unless they have changed the way their magazine wells are secured to the frame of Glocks they are not legal for IDPA. When I asked Dawson (about 5 months back) even the lightweight aluminum model was secured to the frame in a Glock using a brass plug.

Thank you all for your input


David

Thanks for you information David. I think it's completely ridiculous that you can add weight (at MD's discretion) to the mags and not have a plug that is brass- to support a magwell! Why have ESP and an overall weight ristriction?? I can certainly understan if this was SSP. My G35 with that magwell is under the limit and I don't have weighted mags. Leaving some of these things up to the MD is a recipe for disaster. Why travel to a match without having a clear understanding up front???

[Greg Bell]

I think Robert Ray really does have the best interests of IDPA in mind but until we get a clear concise and easy to administer set of rules this kind of thing is going to continue. I really hope the next version of the rule book takes us to that next level. JMO

[lugnut]

Greg Bell, on Mar 6 2009, 09:49 AM, said:

I think Robert Ray really does have the best interests of IDPA in mind but until we get a clear concise and easy to administer set of rules this kind of thing is going to continue. I really hope the next version of the rule book takes us to that next level. JMO

I know Greg, and I can sympathize with him to a point, but it does get a tad frustrating. I've been shooting IPDA going on three years now and this "ambiguity" gets really frustrating... not only from a shooter's perspective but from an SO/MD perspective.

I usually shoot SSP in IDPA but I've started shooting Limited with my G35 in USPSA. I'd like to use my G35 is ESP as well... I love the ICE magwell. If Dawson made a plug out of aluminum or steel maybe it would be "legal"- but would they be legal since they aren't plastic (like the Glock) and still added weight? I've seen some guys using their 2011 guns in ESP without the high cap mags without problem... but a G35 with a 2.9 oz magwell assembly is no good? Ughh!

Oh and for the one oz mag plate allowance.... heck they make plastic ones that aren't an oz... why have steel? An oz is an oz so if it's brass who cares? I guess it's not easy to validate the actual weight anyway... if they are glued on. Just more challenges for SO/MDs.

I say at least in ESP you gotta go on the overall weight.. there is just no other way IMO.

[steel1212]

lugnut, on Feb 25 2009, 11:12 PM, said:

CDPMatt, on Feb 25 2009, 07:22 PM, said:

It fits the box and as long as it isn't the "heavy ice" version it's good to go....

I confirmed it fits in the box- albeit tightly.

I guess its not the same width as the ICE on the STIs as there is no way they fit.....

[freeidaho]

Another thought on weights I haven't heard before.

I do not believe it was the founders intent for all guns in a division to be weighted up to the maximum. It seems to me that the founders wanted each gun to be short at nearly its original production weight. Part of the "no equipment race" provision of IDPA.

That is why we have a maximum weight, and restrictions on what weight can be added. I'm sure this wasn't done by accident.

So the thought of "just let me manage the weight of my gun," is probably contrary to the founders intention. They wanted competitors to pick a gun and shoot it, not tweak it to death as is popular in so many other sports.

Just a though,

kr

This post has been edited by freeidaho: 06 March 2009 - 12:21 PM

[lugnut]

freeidaho, on Mar 6 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

Another thought on weights I haven't heard before.

I do not believe it was the founders intent for all guns in a division to be weighted up to the maximum. It seems to me that the founders wanted each gun to be short at nearly its original production weight. Part of the "no equipment race" provision of IDPA.

That is why we have a maximum weight, and restrictions on what weight can be added. I'm sure this wasn't done by accident.

So the thought of "just let me manage the weight of my gun," is probably contrary to the founders intention. They wanted competitors to pick a gun and shoot it, not tweak it to death as is popular in so many other sports.

Just a though,

kr

Kr- I understand what you are saying for the most part. But I guess I'm just not so sure what the equipment race is when I can't add a 2.9oz $60 part to a Glock when people can shoot the 2011 guns in that division. I'm not really talking about making drastic modifications. With the brass plug I'm still probably 10 oz under so is it really a big deal? Honestly- I think a weighted mag plate is more of an equipment "race thing".

I'll get over it.... just doesn't make sense in my mind. I don't mean to be negative or pissy.

[lugnut]

steel1212, on Mar 6 2009, 12:03 PM, said:

I guess its not the same width as the ICE on the STIs as there is no way they fit.....

Must not be. It was "snug" but fit. To make it fit better I'd probably shave some material off the back of the mag well. But I certainly won't do that if I can't use it in ESP!

[grizzlywon]

As I see it, for us IDPA guys, we need to petition Dawson to make a plug that is Steel. Or make one ourselves and sell them for $10-15?

I have a friend who is a machinist and will ask him if he will make me one up. I plan on using this magwell this fall at my state cup.

[HighVelocity]

I use a Dawson ICE magwell on a G34 for ESP. But, I removed the brass insert and made my own out of plastic. Problem solved. It fits in the box easily, too.

[Hatchet Jack]

HighVelocity, on Aug 29 2009, 06:43 PM, said:

I use a Dawson ICE magwell on a G34 for ESP. But, I removed the brass insert and made my own out of plastic. Problem solved. It fits in the box easily, too.

I too use a Dawson Ice on my G34 for ESP - but I retained the brass plug. I painted it flat black so as not to call attention to it. I've used it in several major matches w/o issue. The gun is a snug fit in the box, but it does fit.

So, I suppose I'm cheating, but my IDPA skills are a threat to no one - so I don't see a problem. If I had a plastic plug then I'd use that. I just think the rule on this is flat out stupid. If I ever catch grief on this then I'll have a friend make up a replacement plug out of either Ti, fossilized feces or depleted uranium.

Can you tell that this bugs me?

[Bones]

Hatchet Jack, on Aug 29 2009, 07:08 PM, said:

So, I suppose I'm cheating, but my IDPA skills are a threat to no one - so I don't see a problem.

Can you tell that this bugs me?

Obviously it doesn't "bug" you enough to stop risking major match fees for a $10 part.

And you're wrong - your actions effect everyone in your Division and Classification who are responsible enough to comply with rules they may not fully agree with.

Craig

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: I will throw another issue into the fire. If you are shooting a 2011 can you use a metal mainspring housing and a stainless magwell? Seems this should also be illegal to me. I shoot both a Glock and a 2011. I see no real advantage in the brass insert on the Glock or the 2011 if they both make the weight. I can see the issue of weighted mag base pads though. I do think if they are going to give you a weight limit then you should be able to use any part as long as it makes weight and fits the box. That makes it simple for everyone Thanks, Eric

[Steve Koski]

Hatchet Jack,

Really? You cheat intentionally? That's not too honorable.

Koski

[grizzlywon]

Aircooled6racer, on Aug 29 2009, 09:10 PM, said:

Hello: I will throw another issue into the fire. If you are shooting a 2011 can you use a metal mainspring housing and a stainless magwell? Seems this should also be illegal to me. I shoot both a Glock and a 2011. I see no real advantage in the brass insert on the Glock or the 2011 if they both make the weight. I can see the issue of weighted mag base pads though. I do think if they are going to give you a weight limit then you should be able to use any part as long as it makes weight and fits the box. That makes it simple for everyone Thanks, Eric

I agree. What is the point of a weight limit? I weighed my 35 and it comes out to be 1lbs.13.8OZ. Add a 2.9 oz magwell and I am still about 10.3 oz below the limit! That's almost 25% below the max.

I wish I could afford a 9mm STI. Oh well, I love my Glocks anyway.

At some matches, they do the equipment check first. In this case I don't see why they wouldn't allow me to change out the magwell to a plastic one if worst came to worst (it would take about 1min). Now if it is checked later in the match, I would have to plead my case.

I think I will get a plastic magwell (borrow one from a friend) and get the insert made of something else.

Does anyone know if the $29 plastic one has a plug that would switch out and work on the ICE?


One more thing, its kinda jacked to call someone a cheater when the IDPA rule book says nothing about "no brass" magwells. From my best assessment, they are considering a magwell a type of grip. I don't agree with this and it doesn't specify that in the book either. Another thing, it says you can't add grips that are more than an ounce more than the originals. Glocks don't have add on grips (unless you consider a sleeve one), so once again it is too vague.

One of you hit the nail on the head earlier in the this thread, basically saying that if the rules are too vague, it leaves too much open for interpretation and leaves a shooter open to traveling for days on end, spending hundreds of dollars to be told, "you are not in compliance with our vague rules so now you can get a DNF and go home!"

I am not for cheating, but I will take advantage of any loopholes I see in a rule book. that's what competitive people do.
Like I said, for ESP, let people do whatever they want to the grips/mags as long as it is under the weight and fits in the box. Otherwise get rid of the ESP class.

This post has been edited by grizzlywon: 30 August 2009 - 03:30 PM

[lugnut]

grizzlywon, on Aug 30 2009, 03:20 PM, said:

One more thing, its kinda jacked to call someone a cheater when the IDPA rule book says nothing about "no brass" magwells. From my best assessment, they are considering a magwell a type of grip. I don't agree with this and it doesn't specify that in the book either. Another thing, it says you can't add grips that are more than an ounce more than the originals. Glocks don't have add on grips (unless you consider a sleeve one), so once again it is too vague.

I think it might be here... whether we like it or not...

"The following modifications are NOT ALLOWED IN ANY
DIVISION unless otherwise specifically mentioned.

B. Add-on weights for a competitive advantage (this includes,
but is not limited to, weighted magazines, tungsten guide rods,
brass magazine wells, weighted grips)."

This post has been edited by lugnut: 30 August 2009 - 05:07 PM

[grizzlywon]

B. Add-on weights for a competitive advantage (this includes,
but is not limited to, weighted magazines, tungsten guide rods,
brass magazine wells, weighted grips)."
[/quote]


Is the ICE a brass Magwell? I would say no, its not although it does have a small part that is in the grip that is brass. But once again, we are dealing with a vague rulebook.

Like I said, I plan on removing all the brass parts so this is not a game of semantics.

This post has been edited by grizzlywon: 30 August 2009 - 08:54 PM

[Boats]

Might be a foolish question but is changing the magwell on a Glock important ? Factory stock 1911 you have to line things up right but my SSP M&P is pretty easy to insert mags, Double stack mags are tapered and slip in easy without any add on parts. I would guess Glocks same thing applys.

Shooting matches it's best to focus on breaking shots not worrying about equipment, or if the equipment is going to be a problem with the officals. Outside thoughts are not going to help performance.

Boats