36 replies to this topic

[LPatterson]

Until I started really reading and trying to understand the meaning of Brian's posts have I discovered exactly what the Army was trying to teach in parachute school. You learn how to do something so many times that the subconscious brain tells the body it needs to do something before you are aware that it needs to be accomplished. In my example you jump out of an airplane at 1250 feet, the static line equipped parachute should be fully inflated within 4 seconds. If it is not then it has to be gotten rid of or it will probably entangle with the deploying reserve. This has to be subconscious because it is not an institutive move to just jump out of a perfectly good airplane. Somewhere around 8-10 seconds of non support (freefall) the body reaches 120 MPH and only allows about 4-5 seconds to get the reserve deployed before impacting the ground.

My concept of subconscious.

[Duane Thomas]

Hmmmm, not convinced that's a great example. Though we might like to believe differently, we simply don't get enough reps in Tower week to engrain that response into the subconscious mind over the long term. Enough to do five good exits from the 34-foot tower, then simulated checks of the canopy in order to pass that skill, sure. (When I went through they did that the morning of Tower week Friday, then you had to do the 250-foot free tower in the afternnon, not sure if that's still how they do it.) But then Airborne school is over, how often do we really practice that once we get to our unit? Do we do the almost constant reps over months and years necessary to make that an unconscious reaction? We do not. Not saying we couldn't do it under stress, if we kept our heads, and were able to think, and to pull the appropriate response (pop the covers, pull the rings, cut away the main, pull the reserve) out of our memory banks. But that's far and away from the high-speed, unconscious reactions that Bassham is talking about in With Winning In Mind.

US Army Airborne School, graduated 7 Apr 83
Assigned HHB, XVIII Airborne Corps Artillery, Fort Bragg, NC, Apr 83-Oct 85

I'd be interested to know what Patrick Sweeney had to say about that, he was also Airborne.

[shooterbenedetto]

I get it...more like raising a baby chicken in a bunch of duck story.
I wish sometimes that I can learn all shooting skills over again.(got bad habits)
if I'm a chicken but was raised in ducks..I'M A DUCK

It starts with visual!! you can learn how to train like a winner...then think like a winner...move like one
and be like one. Its what my old man told me growing up as an athlete. Then he
gave me Lenny's book for my Birthday..that was 25years ago.

Edited by shooterbenedetto, 11 November 2009 - 10:37 AM.

[Patrick Sweeney]

No Duane, no airborne for me. The only perfectly good aircraft I ever jumped out of were civilian. 5 static line and 17 freefall jumps, though.

I don't like to use "instinctive" to describe human behavior, as I believe we're all a tabula rasa. Instinct is what birds do, to fly south or not. Subconscious is the cognitive behavior that goes on behind the obviously conscious thought. Reflexive is the behavior we exhibit without conscious thought.

One does not instinctively reach for a spare mag, when the reload goes awry, one reflexively reaches, based on experience or visualization.

You can consciously drive subconscious patterns, and thus reflexive responses. You don't have to physically go through the steps to ditch your main and deploy your reserve, if you've done it faithfully a thousand times in your head.

There are limits to that process. For instance, you can't visualize your way through dealing with recoil. That you have to do. But you can manage sight alignment and trigger control a lot better while you learn recoil, if you've visualized them ahead of time.

[Allgoodhits]

No Duane, no airborne for me. The only perfectly good aircraft I ever jumped out of were civilian. 5 ripcord and 17 freefall jumps, though.

I don't like to use "instinctive" to describe human behavior, as I believe we're all a tabula rasa. Instinct is what birds do, to fly south or not. Subconscious is the cognitive behavior that goes on behind the obviously conscious thought. Reflexive is the behavior we exhibit without conscious thought.

One does not instinctively reach for a spare mag, when the reload goes awry, one reflexively reaches, based on experience or visualization.

You can consciously drive subconscious patterns, and thus reflexive responses. You don't have to physically go through the steps to ditch your main and deploy your reserve, if you've done it faithfully a thousand times in your head.

There are limits to that process. For instance, you can't visualize your way through dealing with recoil. That you have to do. But you can manage sight alignment and trigger control a lot better while you learn recoil, if you've visualized them ahead of time.

BINGO!

[benos]

No Duane, no airborne for me. The only perfectly good aircraft I ever jumped out of were civilian. 5 static line and 17 freefall jumps, though.

I don't like to use "instinctive" to describe human behavior, as I believe we're all a tabula rasa. Instinct is what birds do, to fly south or not. Subconscious is the cognitive behavior that goes on behind the obviously conscious thought. Reflexive is the behavior we exhibit without conscious thought.

One does not instinctively reach for a spare mag, when the reload goes awry, one reflexively reaches, based on experience or visualization.

You can consciously drive subconscious patterns, and thus reflexive responses. You don't have to physically go through the steps to ditch your main and deploy your reserve, if you've done it faithfully a thousand times in your head.

There are limits to that process. For instance, you can't visualize your way through dealing with recoil. That you have to do. But you can manage sight alignment and trigger control a lot better while you learn recoil, if you've visualized them ahead of time.

Good stuff Mr. Wordsmith.

I like "reflexive," but still I'm not totally happy with it, to describe "trained response" types of actions were talking about here.

Another quality this "ultimate operating state" should include is the capability for flexibility. I can remember stages I shot where it was not possible to plan the target order. You were tempted to, and I wanted to try to plan a target sequence, but the little voice from down deep said - "Shoot the first target you see that's available and keep doing that until you have 2 hits on each target. Trust, it is the best plan."

Every time I trusted and did that I rocked it.

Now that I'm thinking about it though, that's not an accurate example of what I meant by "flexibility." I'm thinking more like you have a solid plan, and something doesn't go the way you thought it was going to. When you're in the "ultimate operating state" - you effortlessly and thoughtlessly take the best corrective action.
be

[shootingchef]

I ordered some books as I need to reread and read some more. I can shoot fine, I can't handle the match pressure.

[John K]

I decided to have the "little talk" with myself right before the RO asked if I was ready. It was a small thing but it yields great results.
Owning my success, past, present and future also made me a better shooter/competitor. Expect to succeed and the result should not surprise you.

It made the difference for me from being a repetitive shooter and a competitive shooter.

[Allgoodhits]

I ordered some books as I need to reread and read some more. I can shoot fine, I can't handle the match pressure.

In reading your statement above, especially the last phrase, the book WITH WINNING IN MIND will help you tremendously if you're all there!

MJ

[zhunter]

Note: merged thread - Admin

I am presently reading, "With Winning in Mind", by Lanny Bassham

Not sure if it has been recommended before, I like to read this type of book, and this might be the best one I have ever read

Good luck

Edited by Flexmoney, 21 June 2011 - 03:29 PM.

[axeman]

very enlightening

[Flexmoney]

Note: merged thread - Admin

I am presently reading, "With Winning in Mind", by Lanny Bassham

Not sure if it has been recommended before, I like to read this type of book, and this might be the best one I have ever read

Good luck

I merged your thread into this existing one, Z.

Yes...awesome material !!