[David Page]

I have been spending all my time shooting open. I am going to shoot some state fire and police games that require using a production gun. I am looking for help with practicing. I will continue with my open practice, but I am unsure how to handle the production practice. For live fire; do I shoot it on the same day or split it up. Is there a problem with most people transitioning between the two. In the past I have found myself looking over the sights trying to see the dot. The production course of fire is static shooting requiring no reloading. What about dry fire practice do I split it up or add it on at the end. I am just an old hose dragger trying to give to the PD. Thanks in advance for any help.

[Al Capizzo]

Personally I have a hard time switching in the same practice session. I shoot mostly Open too, but when I practice with the iron sighted guns a couple dry draws gets me tuned in and my mind seems to understand I need to look for a front site. But shooting one and then the other in the same session seems to waste a lot of time and ammo getting my head straight.

[HSMITH]

Hi David, welcome to the best place on the internet!

Do NOT use a red or orange fiber optic front sight, trust me on this one, if you shoot Open a lot your iron sight scores will fall off the face of the earth with red or orange fibers......

For me the 'trick' was to use a green fiber optic. That let me separate the guns mentally without thinking about it, red means 'let it rip' and green means I have to aim with both the front and rear sights. You can do the same with a plain black front sight, but something has to be drastically different to get your brain switched over from Open to irons. When you have a good visual cue your brain will recognize to separate the two shoot some groups or plates or long distances with the iron sight gun, it further teaches your brain that with a red dot it can just let it rip and trigger control is really the only issue, with iron sights it needs to see everything else and recognize when all of that is good enough to make the shot while still maintaining proper trigger control.

[Al Capizzo]

HSMITH, on Feb 3 2009, 09:16 PM, said:

Do NOT use a red or orange fiber optic front sight, trust me on this one, if you shoot Open a lot your iron sight scores will fall off the face of the earth with red or orange fibers......

Great point, and something I had completely forgotten about.

[boz1911]

Al Capizzo, on Feb 3 2009, 09:22 PM, said:

HSMITH, on Feb 3 2009, 09:16 PM, said:

Do NOT use a red or orange fiber optic front sight, trust me on this one, if you shoot Open a lot your iron sight scores will fall off the face of the earth with red or orange fibers......

Great point, and something I had completely forgotten about.

I found this out the "hard" way. Mike, ,Mike, Mike....WTF??

[Ben Stoeger]

HSMITH, on Feb 3 2009, 09:16 PM, said:

Do NOT use a red or orange fiber optic front sight, trust me on this one, if you shoot Open a lot your iron sight scores will fall off the face of the earth with red or orange fibers......

Eric G. (The best open shooter in the world) used a red fiber insert when he shoots limited.

Food for thought.

[Jake Di Vita]

It's no difference at all if you aim.

Sure, the open gun is easier to shoot, but as long as you exercise good visual patience, you will be just fine.

[JD45]

Ben Stoeger, on Feb 4 2009, 06:24 PM, said:

HSMITH, on Feb 3 2009, 09:16 PM, said:

Do NOT use a red or orange fiber optic front sight, trust me on this one, if you shoot Open a lot your iron sight scores will fall off the face of the earth with red or orange fibers......

Eric G. (The best open shooter in the world) used a red fiber insert when he shoots limited.

Food for thought.

And if anyone cares to link a recent thread with some Eric G. advice, you will see where he clearly states he uses a pure target focus with his Limited gun for most shots.

[Tzygä]

HSMITH, on Feb 3 2009, 09:16 PM, said:

Hi David, welcome to the best place on the internet!

Do NOT use a red or orange fiber optic front sight, trust me on this one, if you shoot Open a lot your iron sight scores will fall off the face of the earth with red or orange fibers......

For me the 'trick' was to use a green fiber optic. That let me separate the guns mentally without thinking about it, red means 'let it rip' and green means I have to aim with both the front and rear sights. You can do the same with a plain black front sight, but something has to be drastically different to get your brain switched over from Open to irons. When you have a good visual cue your brain will recognize to separate the two shoot some groups or plates or long distances with the iron sight gun, it further teaches your brain that with a red dot it can just let it rip and trigger control is really the only issue, with iron sights it needs to see everything else and recognize when all of that is good enough to make the shot while still maintaining proper trigger control.

+1
I shoot open and I have green fiber optic in my front sight so that way I can concentrate more for the sight picture. When I used red fiber optic I fired right away when I saw red fiber optic in the middle of the target and forgot all about the rear sight. So the green fiber optic tells me to take the time and aim before release the shot.

[HSMITH]

If you have a truly world class index and your Limited gun is set up the same as your Open gun (like Eric G) you could use a target focus on most shots, otherwise separate the two guns somehow.

[Ben Stoeger]

HSMITH, on Feb 5 2009, 07:03 AM, said:

If you have a truly world class index and your Limited gun is set up the same as your Open gun (like Eric G) you could use a target focus on most shots, otherwise separate the two guns somehow.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount Eric's technique or chalk it up to his skill level. He has many unusual ideas, and they may be the reason for his success. I doubt it is the other way around.

[benos]

In general, I wouldn't mix Open and Stock-type guns in the same practice session. For me it worked better to focus one gun per practice session. Now and then it's not a bad idea, but not as a regular schedule.

[ThreadDrift]
I've studied a lot of shooters over the years. And for moving around, shooting Open Class, IPSC stages, no one has impressed me more than Eric. He's extremely fluid, and his Index is so ingrained it's become totally natural. Wherever he focuses, that's where his barrel is pointed.

And from everything I've heard, he's trained more rigorously than anyone. So it makes sense to me that out to around 15 yards he can shoot irons with a hard target focus. I could never get away with that. My Index just wasn't that good. For 15 yard targets, I could shoot pretty well with a target focus, but I would shoot consistently better if I was right on front sight. Which didn't take any longer, as long as I "kept my eyes (focus) moving."
[TD]
be

[Mo Hepworth]

Dot in the notch...(using irons with fibre optic insert)....We are tempted to just put the FO on the target and press the trigger. Production,..although it seems slow ,..just about every shot I see the front sight come down into the rear notch on target. You can get away with hammering once in a while,..but for production division you need lots of A's. I win some stages this way,...and I find it is more important to not win every lap,..but be consistant.

Everything else should almost be the same,..draws and mag changes.,.etc.

I try to get my mag changes done in production before I get moving,....in Standard I can get away with moving before this is done sometimes.

[HSMITH]

Ben, shoot open for a season. I think it truly is just a world class index that is allowing him to do that, and we will discuss this more afterward.

[Ben Stoeger]

HSMITH, on Feb 6 2009, 09:55 PM, said:

Ben, shoot open for a season. I think it truly is just a world class index that is allowing him to do that, and we will discuss this more afterward.

I don't see how me shooting open for a year is going to help me be better able to discuss how Eric can make 20 yard target focused shots (using his index of course) with an iron sighted gun, but I will defer to your wisdom on the subject.

[HSMITH]

You don't shoot open yet you know the finer points of shooting open compared to iron sight divisions. I get it now, and I appreciate the help.

[Jake Di Vita]

Quote

I don't see how me shooting open for a year is going to help me be better able to discuss how Eric can make 20 yard target focused shots (using his index of course) with an iron sighted gun, but I will defer to your wisdom on the subject.

Ben,

You won't see how until you actually do it. Yes...it works like that. Besides, who gives a shit if you can better discuss it or not...all I know is shooting open for a year will make you a better shooter.

I've been telling you that for quite some time now.

[Ben Stoeger]

HSMITH, on Feb 8 2009, 12:48 PM, said:

You don't shoot open yet you know the finer points of shooting open compared to iron sight divisions. I get it now, and I appreciate the help.

Howard,

Please carefully look at what I have posted. I just pointed out that some of the advice given to people on this thread flies in the face of what is actually happening at the top of the sport. A guy who has never even held a gun could make the same observation with just as much validity.

You posted: “Do NOT use a red or orange fiber optic front sight, trust me on this one, if you shoot Open a lot your iron sight scores will fall off the face of the earth with red or orange fibers...…”

What experience I have or don’t have is completely irrelevant, because I am not saying anything about what I do. I am just telling people that what your are saying is demonstrably untrue. Your scores do not necessarily fall off the earth, as Eric, and I am sure others have proven.


Then you post:

“If you have a truly world class index and your Limited gun is set up the same as your Open gun (like Eric G) you could use a target focus on most shots, otherwise separate the two guns somehow.”

This again is something I know a little bit about. At close range targets, when most every iron shooter uses target focus and index, I don’t really see much of a difference. What is truly amazing about Eric’s technique is that he uses target focus all the time with irons, even on the hard shots. When you are nailing a plate at 20 yards, your index doesn’t determine your accuracy, it comes down to sight alignment and trigger control (in my view anyway).

Your view of this is like saying that Eric is so good, he doesn’t even have to aim. He just indexes on a target, and nails As. I don’t care how much open I shoot, I am going to have a hard time swallowing your theory on this one.

One final thing note here, I have talked with quite a few of the worlds top shooters (in my quest to become one of them). They are for the most part very nice guys. I have never heard any of them try so hard to ram their advice and views down someone else’s throat. You can think I am wrong… that’s perfectly fine, but I have never heard one of our sports greats talk to someone the way you are talking to me.

[HSMITH]

Ben, 99.995% of this board are weekend shooters, like me, and are not Eric G. You bring up ONE guy that is doing something different, I will grant that he is one of the best ever, but to suggest that the experience of everyone else is worthless because of ONE guy doesn't make sense to me. I have seen what I have seen, I have plenty of experience with both guns, and I have helped a BUNCH of people with the transition from one to the other. What I am saying works better for everyone that has tried it. You walk into the conversation and say essentially "that is BS, Eric doesn't do that so you are wrong". That isn't the case, and I suggest that if you had more experience with both guns your position would change. My satire is directed at your advice to me and others when we know what works for us and others as well as what doesn't work for the vast majority of people. Several people in this very thread have recognized that it does in fact work better. If your feelings are hurt I apologize. I have helped dozens of shooters with the transition and think I know what I am talking about. I also know quite a few of the top shooters well and I sincerely doubt any of them will suggest a target focus at even moderate distances with an iron sight gun, but I'll ask them just to be sure. For the now I'll stick to my guns and suggest that shooters separate the guns somehow until a better way comes along. If I find a better way I will be the first to eat my own words or if someone suggests a different way I will be one of the first to try it.

BTW, I do not think that Eric is so good that he just looks at a target and shoots A's or doesn't have to aim, and I haven't suggested that. I am having a hard time buying that he will shoot a 20 yard plate or head with a hard target focus, some portion of his vision is probably on the gun and sights but maybe not. Shooting Open is what taught me what a hard target focus is, I have pretty normal visual acuity and when doing so at 20 yards I cannot distinguish the sights at all. The outline of the gun is all I am going to get, so I either use the force or I better have an incredibly good index to pull it off. I think his index is incredibly good, possibly the best in the world, and that could allow him to do it. Would I suggest that weekend shooters do it? Nope.

[Ben Stoeger]

HSMITH, on Feb 8 2009, 09:00 PM, said:

Ben, 99.995% of this board are weekend shooters, like me, and are not Eric G. You bring up ONE guy that is doing something different, I will grant that he is one of the best ever, but to suggest that the experience of everyone else is worthless because of ONE guy doesn't make sense to me. I have seen what I have seen, I have plenty of experience with both guns, and I have helped a BUNCH of people with the transition from one to the other. What I am saying works better for everyone that has tried it. You walk into the conversation and say essentially "that is BS, Eric doesn't do that so you are wrong". That isn't the case, and I suggest that if you had more experience with both guns your position would change. My satire is directed at your advice to me and others when we know what works for us and others as well as what doesn't work for the vast majority of people. Several people in this very thread have recognized that it does in fact work better. If your feelings are hurt I apologize. I have helped dozens of shooters with the transition and think I know what I am talking about. I also know quite a few of the top shooters well and I sincerely doubt any of them will suggest a target focus at even moderate distances with an iron sight gun, but I'll ask them just to be sure. For the now I'll stick to my guns and suggest that shooters separate the guns somehow until a better way comes along. If I find a better way I will be the first to eat my own words or if someone suggests a different way I will be one of the first to try it.

BTW, I do not think that Eric is so good that he just looks at a target and shoots A's or doesn't have to aim, and I haven't suggested that. I am having a hard time buying that he will shoot a 20 yard plate or head with a hard target focus, some portion of his vision is probably on the gun and sights but maybe not. Shooting Open is what taught me what a hard target focus is, I have pretty normal visual acuity and when doing so at 20 yards I cannot distinguish the sights at all. The outline of the gun is all I am going to get, so I either use the force or I better have an incredibly good index to pull it off. I think his index is incredibly good, possibly the best in the world, and that could allow him to do it. Would I suggest that weekend shooters do it? Nope.

Howard,

I think the problem here is that we are using keyboards and not talking in person.

When you post something in very strong terms, like: “Do NOT use a red or orange fiber optic front sight, trust me on this one, if you shoot Open a lot your iron sight scores will fall off the face of the earth with red or orange fibers...…”

I read that as if you do X, Y will happen.

My post demonstrated that X doesn’t necessarily cause Y.

I at no point recommended any technique or equipment to anyone. All I advocate is experimentation and an open mind. If you want to talk about what works better, that’s fine. If you want to help a guy out, then that is great. However, your terms were much stronger than that. You said, if you do X, Y is the inevitable result. That is a patently false statement.

As far as the issue of where Eric focuses his vision, I don’t do it. Personally I don’t recommend doing what Eric does. However, Eric is awesome. What he does matters to me, as I am a serious student of the game. I don’t plan on doing what he does, just because he does it. However, it warrants serious thought and consideration.

I try to read posts in here very precisely. I try to use words very precisely. You might want to chose words more carefully to avoid misunderstandings like this. I didn’t say your experience is “worthless”. I didn’t even give advice for anyone to do anything, except to consider the other side.

[HSMITH]

Fair enough, I really don't want to argue.

[Flexmoney]

I don't think it really matters what gun and gear you have. If you aren't getting your Alphas, you aren't seeing right.

So many shooters look, but don't see.

[shooter steve]

I'm only a B shooter, but I shot open for a long time. When I got a new limited gun with a red FO sight, my scores tanked. When I saw a red dot on the target, I was sending rounds down range, and my scores were terrible. I had no idea why I was shooting so bad. I took a couple lessons from a local GM and had to relearn how to look at sights again, and not at the target. That probably sounds rediculous to someone who hasn't shot a lot of open before. Anyway, once I figured out what was going on, I simply broke out the red rod and went to a "regular" sight picture. That, along with paying someone to teach me to look at my sights-"well duh", I'm doing a lot better. Get rid of the red FO. There maybe other people who don't need to, but why fight it when other options are so simple?

[Flexmoney]

There are so many shooter (coming from Open or not) that constantly shoot iron sights with a target focus. If they did well at it, cool. But...they nearly always don't.

Brian talks about keeping the vision moving. I preach about it, because I feel it is so vital with irons. We aren't talking about moving the vision from target to target. The vision needs to be able to suck back to see the serrations on the front sight...see the sight lift in recoil...then, it goes back out to locate the SPOT on the next target that we want to transition the gun to. As the gun comes on target, the vision is moving back to see the front sight serrations again. Constantly moving. Constantly seeing.

It's not just making the shot. If shooting a red dot or irons...I want to be seeing the things that give me the most feedback. The best feedback will allow my body to make correction that I don't even have to think about.

The key is actually seeing, and being aware. Same as always. Don't let your visions gloss over. Don't get caught up in what you expect to see. Open up the awareness and experience what is truly going on. See more.

[benos]

In practice, I could consistently hit 8" plates with iron sights at 50 yards with a hard target focus. But the shot would break a lot quicker and hit closer to the center of the plate with a razor sharp front sight focus. And the same at 25 yards on 4" plates.
be