[donato]

I shot last week’s Tuesday Night Steel out at Rio Salado. I had a miss I thought was a hit on the first CoF that cost 5 seconds and then I started taking extra shots on the remaining CoFs that cost me a bunch of extra time.

So I decided to go back to the basics, group shooting.

For the 100th time I reviewed; Calling the Shot segments by Brian on my Matt Burkett and Lenny Magill DVDs. So many times I left the house saying (for 2 years now); “today is the day I’m going to figure it out”, only to leave the range disappointed.

I heading out again, optimistic but wasn’t expecting a miracle. Although my groups weren’t bad out at 25 yards, for the first 100 rounds I didn’t see anything. Then I started to see… it was like a snap-shot, a still-frame in my mind of the sight alignment and sight picture at the moment of ignition, before the sights even lift.

• I moved the target out to 50 yards so I couldn’t be distracted by the holes.
  
• I took the shot and reviewed the still-frame in my mind.
  
• I then penciled in on a small scale target where I think the shot went.
  
• Then I looked through my binoculars and there it was.

Sometimes I called left of center low and it was really left-high, sometimes I was dead on, and sometimes I don’t know what happened but I’m on my way, I know what to look for. Like Brian says, “it’s all happening right there in front of you, you just haven’t trained yourself to see it”.

Now I can see how valuable this skill is, knowing exactly where your bullet went before it even leaves the barrel, nice…

Donato.

[davecutts]

That is a good day on the range!

[JimmyZip]

I am just learning to do this at speed consistently. It really adds a level of confidence the more that you are capable of doing it. Just don't try too hard, you might find it missing.

[Powder Finger]

It's easy to get caught in the hurry up mode @ Rio, but another trick to try is this.
More like your tie my mind up mantra.
Rondy used to say it so Brian may have said it first.
"Just burn a hole right in the exact middle of the plate with your eyeball, then you'll be center punching every plate"
When you try it & it works you will probably call the shot whether you like it or not.
After the first time you will swear the time was forever, but just look at the timer (if you must) and you will see a time on it you probably thought was not posible for you.

[benos]

Powder Finger, on Feb 4 2009, 05:30 AM, said:

It's easy to get caught in the hurry up mode @ Rio, but another trick to try is this.
More like your tie my mind up mantra.
Rondy used to say it so Brian may have said it first.
"Just burn a hole right in the exact middle of the plate with your eyeball, then you'll be center punching every plate"
When you try it & it works you will probably call the shot whether you like it or not.
After the first time you will swear the time was forever, but just look at the timer (if you must) and you will see a time on it you probably thought was not posible for you.

Thanks Greg - I'd forgotten that one.
be

[benos]

If you haven't yet had donato's lights on experience, you are most likely blinking right as you fire each shot. Many shooters blink for years and never know it. So learn how not to blink, and then shot calling is easy. I know there's some good posts/threads on not blinking...

be

[Flexmoney]

benos, on Feb 10 2009, 03:17 PM, said:

Powder Finger, on Feb 4 2009, 05:30 AM, said:

It's easy to get caught in the hurry up mode @ Rio, but another trick to try is this.
More like your tie my mind up mantra.
Rondy used to say it so Brian may have said it first.
"Just burn a hole right in the exact middle of the plate with your eyeball, then you'll be center punching every plate"When you try it & it works you will probably call the shot whether you like it or not.
After the first time you will swear the time was forever, but just look at the timer (if you must) and you will see a time on it you probably thought was not posible for you.

Thanks Greg - I'd forgotten that one.
be

I like that. I talk about "center punching", but that is a way cooler way to say it. (I just assume I've learned most all of this stuff from Brian.)

[Powder Finger]

The only real problem with the eyeball burn technique is if you focus too much you really do burn a hole in the plate, then your bullet goes through the hole, then the RO gives you a miss and you gots to buy a new plate!

[benos]

Powder Finger, on Feb 11 2009, 07:30 AM, said:

The only real problem with the eyeball burn technique is if you focus too much you really do burn a hole in the plate, then your bullet goes through the hole, then the RO gives you a miss and you gots to buy a new plate!

Or you lose a shot due to a "perfect double"!

[donato]

I’ll definitely try the “burn-the-hole” trick. Tuesday Night Steel by the time I get there it’s dark already and it’s difficult to see my sights sometimes.

Anyway, I decided to work on my group shooting and calling my shots again last weekend and as you can see I still need some work. I was actually able to call many the shots that were off center. At 50 yards even the slightest deviation in the sight alignment translates to several inches downrange.



It seems like a lot of work at first but in one of my Practical Shooting DVD by Lenny Magill, he recommends the following for speeding up the process of calling your shots;

• Putting your target out to 50 yards.
  
• Taking the shot and calling the shot.
  
• Penciling in on a scaled down target where you think the shot went.

• Then looking down range at where the shot actually went.

If I didn’t call my shot correctly then I needed to figure out why? I have the fundamentals I learned from this site, books, and videos in my head but I think this exercise kind of helped them materialize. It forces me to go beyond if it’s a hit or a miss but actually get to the point where I try to can call left-high, 2 inches off center, or right-low etc.

I still think it will take years for me to become really proficient at this. The target above was 50 yards from a sandbag, standing was just bit more challenging, but like I said I know what to look for now, I just need to find it faster and more consistently, it’s really a lot of fun.

Donato.

This post has been edited by donato: 12 February 2009 - 12:42 PM

[benos]

Man, I hate to see Lenny Magill getting credit for that!

[Powder Finger]

Man, I hate to see Lenny Magill getting credit for that!

No kidding!

On topic, Donato one thing to remember about your groups & shot calls is how good does the gun shoot?
I can't tell how big the target is but the shots seem to be fairly centered and group is round.
Try shooting at a small paper plate(4-5") @ 50yd. At first a lot of group shooting has to do with the target you are aiming at. There looks like a lot of "black" on that target to aim at even @ 50.
Basically it's hard to call a shot "EXACTLY" that falls within your normal group size and call it "low right" or what ever.
But if you call a low right & on target it's 3 or 4 inches out side your "normal group size" at the basic place you called it then your cooking with gas. Bottom line is the smaller your gun shoots groups the easier it is to say that shot isn't acceptable.
Later

[donato]

Yes I will try a smaller target next time, it’s things like this I wouldn’t know otherwise and waist a lot of time and bullets trying to figure out. The target was the standard NRA rapid fire pistol target where the black is 5 ½ inches across. Do you still think it’s too big or small?

I’m shooting a Wilson Classic with standard adjustable black sights. I’ve fired about 1,000 rounds now group shooting off a sand bag with this pistol so I know exactly where this guns shoots at 10, 25, and 50 yards.

When I was calling my shots to the center of the target, my front post had equal lighting on left and right sides and the front post was level with the rear notch and the front post covered the bottom half of the black circle. I would remember the still-frame in my mind after the hammer dropped and before my sights started to lift.

When I called my shots left or right, I could definitely see so slightly unequal lighting on one side of the post or the other at the moment the gun fired. I was equally accurate on calling directly up or down. The thing that still has me stumped is the combinations of up or down one side or the other. I thought I saw left-low and it really was left-high, or vice-versa.

Ultimately I think it’s the Pistol Masters that get the credit for everything. Lenny seems a little hokey, (in a good way) but he does have a way of dummying the information down almost like a “Practical Shooting for Dummies”; I think I learned a lot in a short amount of time with this approach. I’m not giving credit to Lenny for the whole concept of “Calling the Shot”, he just gave me the idea of writing it down on a small-scale target. I’ve probably seen that idea in other places but his DVD is where I remember it. It’s one of those things you easily overlook, (for me 2 years) until you actually try it and see the value.

Donato.

This post has been edited by donato: 13 February 2009 - 05:29 AM

[Powder Finger]

I would not say the black center is too big @ 5.5", but i would say wrong color.
Your sights tend to get lost in a sea of black even @50yd.
As an example a 12 minute dot sounds real big but it will almost perfectly sit on a head box @ 50 yds
so it's very easy to see it come off an edge if you pull a shot.
For a test with iron sights try a four sided light colored aiming spot that brakets the rear sight in width.
also not that i can do it @ 50yd anymore but the concept works.
Rob would just shoot a shot on target then that bullet hole becomes your aiming point.
The bullet hole aiming point may not end up in the group but you almost always shoot small groups that way.
Aim small Miss small I guess.

[Albertl35]

Powder Finger, on Feb 12 2009, 10:17 AM, said:

Rob would just shoot a shot on target then that bullet hole becomes your aiming point.
The bullet hole aiming point may not end up in the group but you almost always shoot small groups that way.

I find the above works even at 15 yards. Then again 50yards for me would be a looong way off

[donato]

Kind of the point I was trying to make was that you wouldn’t see the value unless you actually tried it. The idea of moving the target out to 50 yards is it forces you to concentrate on your sight alignment and trigger control, and removes the distraction of seeing the holes in the target. The fact that you can’t see the holes makes you think about that last thing you remember right before the sights lifted and write it down on paper. Then you look at the hole downrange with your spotting scope or binoculars and see if you actually called the shot correctly, if you didn’t then you need to figure out why? I would say if you’re 100% correct on this exercise then it’s time to move on to something else.

Like I said, I glossed over this exercise for about 2 years but I got frustrated to the point where I would try anything and you know I learned something. Now I can now see (somewhat) what I’ve been missing but I’m sure there’s more.

[Flexmoney]

Nice post, donato.

It's the little distinctions that people often gloss over...and miss.


Some will be put off to shoot/hit a target at that distance. I'd suggest they take whatever distance they can shoot a basketball sized group at...then add 5y...and start from there. (work the distance out as skills improve)

I've also put a black T-shirt over the target to help cure the "look for the holes" mentality.

I think the reason people fail is that they are too caught up in the outcome...in hitting the target. And, those that succeed are the ones that focus on the process...on execution.

[benos]

Flexmoney, on Feb 13 2009, 02:53 PM, said:

I think the reason people fail is that they are too caught up in the outcome...in hitting the target. And, those that succeed are the ones that focus on the process...on execution.

Nicely said!
be

[Powder Finger]

One last comment since I think I kinda of drifted this.
Originally a miss & penalty was a problem.
I see group shooting, calling shots, and then the missed shot as separate skills.
In short if I call a shot a miss does not correlate to making up the shot. That happens so fast your consious mind can say
"NO WAY YOU MISSED" & down the road you go. When the shot call hit or miss, along with what to do about it becomes
an unconsious act that's when your ____'N in high cotton.
BTW the 50 yd groups look as good as a lot of people out there are capable of, good work.

[donato]

What prompted this originally was a miss I thought was a hit on the first stage. Psychologically this played on my mind and I started taking extra shots hitting the plates more than required to make sure I didn’t miss again. Since I shoot single-stack, the extra shots effected my planned magazines changes which in the end cost me a whole bunch of extra time with extra shots and extra magazine changes because I couldn’t “Call My Shots”.

So it wasn’t necessarily the miss that was the problem, it was not knowing when I hit. This started me thinking about the segments in my Practical Shooting DVDs about “Calling the Shot” which point back to group shooting as the best way to get there.

BTW, I was at the indoor range (25 yard max) this weekend and I was shooting some pretty amazing groups at 25 yards, (for me anyway) standing freestyle that I could never, never shoot before. I actually knew how I shot them and not that I got lucky.

Donato.

This post has been edited by donato: 16 February 2009 - 05:08 PM

[Powder Finger]

Good job, thats what your after.

[whatmeworry]

Donato,
Is it me or does that top target show that your bullets are tumbling? If they are and you get that problem squared away your groups may shrink a bit and make you happier yet.
CYa,
Pat