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Solution for EAA Witness Limited .40 S&W Nose Dive Issues


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#1 CHA-LEE

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 04:09 PM

As you all probably already know, the EAA pistols are super finicky about feeding reloaded rounds if the cases are not perfectly straight. After much testing, retesting, and more testing I believe I have found a solution for the nose dive issue that allows you to run ANY previously fired brass. Two other EAA shooters and I have put almost 2000 rounds of this new round setup through our guns and it has performed flawlessly. More importantly, it has performed flawlessly in all of our different magazine setups. The other huge benefit to this new round setup is that the Henning 21+1 base pad setup now fits 21 rounds fairly easy. You can’t cram 22 rounds in there but 21 rounds fits nicely and still allows for them to compress a little so you can reload with the 21 round mags without having to beat it into the gun to seat properly. With no further delay, here is the recipie for the new round setup……

Special Resizing Tools needed

(1) Gizmo Case Resizer – This resizer resizes the whole case by pushing it completely through the resizing die. You can order this from Target Arms my e-mailing John Eiermann at jnighthawk@sbcglobal.net. I believe the price of this is $75 shipped but I am not sure if he is changing is prices with the new year. E-mail him to find out what the story is. How it worked for me is I e-mailed him, he said to mail him a money order for $75 and then a few days later the Gizmo was in my mailbox. Super nice guy to work with too.

(2) EGW Undersize Die - You will have to drill out the threads at the top of the EGW Undersize die to something larger than a .40 case diameter. The Gizmo Case Resizer pushes the case all the way through the die and it comes out the top. The standard EGW Undersize Die comes with a threaded top to put the decapping pin in the die. Since we are not using it to decap the brass and the case needs to pass through the top of the die, you need to drill it out. This is easy if you have access to a drill press. I got the EGW Undersize Die off of Henning’s website for $30. He is also a super nice guy to work with.

(3) Single Stage Press – I got a LEE single stage press for $20 off of ebay. You could probably get one from a local gun store as well. Nothing fancy is needed with it so don’t spend more than you have to on one.

(4) Case Lube – I use the Hornady One Shot case lube. This is needed to lube up the cases so they can be easily pushed through the Gizmo Case Resizer. You can force the brass through the Gizmo without it but it takes a LOT more effort. The case lube makes it a lot easier to resize the brass. You should be able to find this or other case lubes at you local sporting goods store.

I am using the Dillion 650 reloading press and keep the standard Dillion resizing/decapping die in the first stage. When you run the cases through the Gizmo with the EGW U-Die the cases end up being .415 in diameter. The Dillion resizing die will bring cases down to .417 so as you run the Gizmo’ed cases through the press the Dillion resizing die isn’t even resizing the cases, it is just pushing out the used primers. As you run the rounds through the press the bullet will push into the cases and expand the neck of the case to a size of .420. At least this is the case with the bullets I am currently using (Zero 180gr FMJ). When the round is finished you should be able to measure .420 at the top of the case then it should tapper down to .415 down the rest of the case. This size difference from top to bottom also helps keep the rounds at a tilted angle as they are fed into the magazine. I am also using a really long OAL of 1.225 as this also helps with fending off the nose dive when/if it happens because the round is long enough to place the tip of the bullet on the start of the barrel feed ramp when it does nose dive. Then it will just climb up the feed ramp and chamber as it should. When the rounds have a shorter OAL there is a chance that the round will nose dive and dip below the start of the barrel feed ramp and cause the head of the bullet to butt up against the base of the feed ramp. Given that the OAL used is a lot longer than normal a different powder load is needed. I have listed below the load that works great for all three of our guns. I hope that this helps other EAA owners get past the nose dive issues when using once fired brass from unknown origin. I know it was a huge sigh of relief for me when I got it figured out and didn’t have to worry about nose dives any more. I can take some pictures of this stuff if you like, but its pretty self explanatory. Let me know if you have any questions.

Round Recipe

Case – Standard Mixed Brass Gizmo Resized to .415
Bullet – Zero 180gr FMJ
Primer – Winchester Small Pistol
Powder – Hogdon Clays
Powder Drop – 4.6gr
OAL – 1.225
Average Velocity – 935fps
Average Power Factor – 168 PF
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#2 CHA-LEE

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 09:18 AM

Wow....... Over 50 views and not one comment huh. Is this information not useful to you guys? If you think I am crazy or way off base with this solution feel free to chime in.
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#3 Glk21C

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 09:23 AM

I personally have not had these issues in my Limited but if I do I'm glad you wrote this up. Thanks

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#4 shooterbenedetto

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 09:49 AM

Thanks for the comment LEE, I guess not a lot of Tanfoglio shooters out there? STI still dominate the market.
Great information.

#5 LeoHallak

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 10:46 AM

Wow....... Over 50 views and not one comment huh. Is this information not useful to you guys? If you think I am crazy or way off base with this solution feel free to chime in.


Ill have to check it out. But honestly never had a problem with my .40 just using a Lee U-Die, even with glock brass.


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#6 R.Elliott

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 10:58 AM

Other than the fact that they don't like hollow points, I've never really had a problem with mine. The ones that I've seen that did just needed a little mag/spring tuning (lips parallel at .385-.400 and lots of lift on the front of the top coil of the mag spring)and all was good. We shoot a lot indoors here since winter seems to last forever, and the mag lips tend to spread from getting dropped on the concrete all the time. Other than that; any cases that wouldn't drop into my gage went through the Case Pro and that solved any Glock brass related bulging issues.
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#7 LeoHallak

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 11:01 AM

Other than the fact that they don't like hollow points, I've never really had a problem with mine. The ones that I've seen that did just needed a little mag/spring tuning (lips parallel at .385-.400 and lots of lift on the front of the top coil of the mag spring)and all was good. We shoot a lot indoors here since winter seems to last forever, and the mag lips tend to spread from getting dropped on the concrete all the time. Other than that; any cases that wouldn't drop into my gage went through the Case Pro and that solved any Glock brass related bulging issues.



Its weird but I never had a problem with a HP on my Limited 40. But none of my Gold teams will run a HP or even a 121 Montana through them. ohh well.

#8 Smokie

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 11:03 AM

I also have probs with nose dives.
I always use Win brass and OAL 1.171

My personal experience, with my config it depends on the shape of the bullet.
With round nose no probs, with a flat point nothing but trouble :closedeyes:
I got some 185gr FP really cheap so i want to use them.

After reading your post, i'm first going to try load longer; As i was told not to load longer as 1.180 because of possible feed probs :unsure: and pressure?
My other concern are the mags dimensions causing nose dives?

Current load :
Win brass
Federal primer
MPF FP 185gr bullet
OAL 1.171
VV N340 5.7gr
PF 174

#9 Jeff686

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 11:34 AM

Its weird but I never had a problem with a HP on my Limited 40. But none of my Gold teams will run a HP or even a 121 Montana through them. ohh well.


I'm running 121 MG IFP in my Gold Team. Never had a problem, never even knew I shouldn't use them. I load to 1.24 - 1.25 OAL. I also don't use a U-Die.

Maybe my Gold Team is looser than others. I don't have any accuracy problems.

I often wonder about making an IPSC gun so tight (accurate) that they get unreliable. I know there's a tradeoff between money, reliability, and accuracy. If you have the money and a really good gunsmith, you can get an accurate and reliable firearm. However, how much accuracy is really necessary? I think people forget that 'good enough' is... well... 'good enough'.

A perfect example is my L10 rig. It is a Norinco 1911 with a Virgil Tripp trigger job & chrome. My total cost was under $600. Does the slide rattle? No. Are the machine marks visible inside the slide and dust cover? Yes. Can I clear a texas star without missing? Yes. I made B class with it, and I don't really practice.

Anyway, maybe my Gold Team is a litte like my Norinco :). Accurate enough, runs well, costs less than a Disney vacation.
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#10 DarthMuffin

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 03:30 PM

Wow....... Over 50 views and not one comment huh. Is this information not useful to you guys? If you think I am crazy or way off base with this solution feel free to chime in.


Thanks, the info is appreciated and has been noted for possible future use. However I haven't seen the nosedive problem yet (gun is still new to me though).

If I do, I'll probably be more likely to buy a roll sizer or use a friends though...

#11 CHA-LEE

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 03:49 PM

Yeah a Roll Sizer would be a perfect solution but its also about 10 times the cost of the Gizmo setup I put together. In the end it does the same job so I am not sure its worth it to spend the extra $$$ on a Roll Sizer.

Maybe its the altitude here in Colorado that causes the nose dive issues :) There are at least three of us here that were all having the same nose dive issues. Maybe its the Zero bullet we are using? It is a flat nose bullet. I can see how a rounded nose bullet would mechanically feed better. I have tried MANY different resizing setups in the press to overcome this nose dive problem and it always came back to the base of the case causing the problem. If the base of the case had any bulge or step in diamiter from the extrator ring to the base of the body they would hang up on one another as the slide tries to pick up the round it would cause a nose dive. The Dies in the press can never get all the way to the bottom of the case so you are forced to resize the brass in a seperate device. Since using the Gizmo and bringing the cases and extractor ring down to .415 in diamiter the rounds come out of the magazine smooth as silk. No hanging up on each other at all. Plus you have the benifit of how the rounds stack up in the magazine. I will take some pictures of these rounds loaded up in a magazine to show how well they stack up.
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#12 CHA-LEE

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 04:08 PM

Smokie> Initially that is what I did, load using a longer OAL. That did help quite a bit with the nose dive issue, but it would still happen from time to time. I know that 1.225 seems super long, but at least with the Zero bullets I am using they still do not touch the rifling of the barrel when chambered.

I kind of wonder if EAA makes one .40/10mm barrel and then just changes the case depth ridge for either round. I know that if I put one of the 1.225 rounds in my XDm barrel the bullet head will hit the rifling before the case is fully seated in the chamber.

I am by no means an expert at this. I am just trying to relay what I have found. Hopefully it helps others from pulling their hair out in the middle of a match due to excessive nose dive issues.
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#13 dirty whiteboy

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 04:23 PM

Who even makes a round nose bullet in 40(10mm). Maybe Ranier?

#14 Jaxshooter

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 04:35 PM

Precision also makes RN .40 bullets.
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#15 DarthMuffin

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 08:41 AM

Yes, Rainier makes 180gr RN .40 bullets. I've been using them for a while. They're not completely rounded, there's still a small flat spot at the tip but it's probably small enough not to make a difference.

I had problems with the Rainiers tumbling out of my CZ75 though. They worked fine in my USP and appear to in my Limited (haven't shot very many), both have polygonal rifling.

I was going to try switching to Montana Golds next. After reading this maybe it would be wise to buy a few hundred off a friend before placing a big order...

#16 Smokie

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 10:01 AM

Berrys mfg has different styles of bullets :
Berrys

And Partizan has some 190gr, i had no trouble with these bullets and groups are very good.
But 138€ for 1.000 (Belgium) at the moment is expensive :angry2:
The price was almost doubled in a year <_<

@Cha-Lee, i will work my way up to a longer load.

#17 CHA-LEE

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 02:33 PM

Smokie> If it helps, when I went from 1.175 OAL to 1.225 I had to up my powder drop from 4.5gr to 4.6gr. Every powder is different through so you may need add more powder to make up the difference in case volume between the two OAL's.
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#18 CHA-LEE

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 02:46 PM

Here are some pictured of the rounds and how they fit in the magazine.

Base of case measurement

Posted Image

Neck of case measurement

Posted Image

21 Rounds loaded up in a 10mm magazine using Henning 21+1 base pad and 11 coil spring with grams follower. Look at how well the second round is seated up against the first round. With these rounds the front of the bullets don't spread out as you load the magazine. Since they fully lay on each other they get picked up all that much easier with no catching on one another.

Posted Image

Posted Image
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#19 JThompson

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 03:25 PM

If you can find the answer for large frame 9mm I'm sure a lot of us would jump up and down.
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#20 CHA-LEE

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 04:35 PM

JThompson> If I had one of those to work with I would give it a shot to figure out. Every setup is different though so what worked here might not work for that situation. All you can do is try different setups until it starts working. It took me a while to get this nose dive worked out but then again I am not one to give up on somthing that does not work right. It has to function perfectly or I am not going to shoot it in a match, so I was forced to find a solution. I can say with 100% confidence that my pistol now feeds the rounds better than it has ever before.
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#21 Smokie

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 09:10 AM

I have a drawing of the mag specs from Eric Grauffel, maybe it can help to prevent nose dives.

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#22 CHA-LEE

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:29 PM

With these undersized cases I had to adjust the front of the magazine feed lips to .385 inch. Some of my magazines were at .400 inch and the last few rounds in the magazine would jump up and miss the camber some times. Since I adjusted the feed lips to .385 it has been running like a champ. My basic rule of thumb is that you should be able to pull up on the nose of the bullet with moderate force and not make the round slip past the feed lips by spreading them apart. If you can, they are to wide. The feed lips should securely retain the round from pushing past them.

Edited by CHA-LEE, 08 January 2009 - 12:34 PM.

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#23 G-ManBart

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 12:43 PM

Precision Delta's 180gr FMJ is pretty close to a real round nose profile. Also the Hornady Action Pistol 180gr hollow point is almost a round nose...it has a very small hollow point, but that part should never hit the feed ramp. R,
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#24 heckle

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 07:51 PM

Wow....... Over 50 views and not one comment huh. Is this information not useful to you guys? If you think I am crazy or way off base with this solution feel free to chime in.


Ill have to check it out. But honestly never had a problem with my .40 just using a Lee U-Die, even with glock brass.


Leo

I'm confused on another thread you wrote that you can only run 11-16 rounds in a 140mm mag, that sounds like a problem to me.

Nose dives are also more common in the new chrome mags. The black mags (10mm) and the older chrome mags seem to work well.

The gizmo is much cheaper than a roll sizer, and with the drilled out egw u die used brass is shrunk down slightly smaller than new brass. The resize die that came with the gizmo did not resize the cases enough to be able to run 21rds without nose dives (I am running all new chrome mags).
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#25 sinnsyk

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 09:18 PM

Eric's measurement of 11.36mm front lips means 0.447" front lips. That's contrary to factory and everything else we're doing. Maybe it's working for him, but I'd like to see some arguments to this. Yes... I've seen feed lips cut short on 9mm, 38 super etc to make the rounds get out of the mag quicker and "pop" into the chamber. I've also seen maglips opened to "release the rounds quicker" like this theory seems to support. Unless there's a backing argument to opening your feedlips like this I'll be opposed to it.

I run my front lips about 0.395" and the rear is about the same (factory). This has and still does a good job for me in my mags. There is definitely some leeway in the width of the lips. What is really important and what I do appreciate what Charlie's done is figuring out a method that is absolute a GREAT way to make your reloaded rounds reliable. The idea of making the rear smaller than the front "concept" makes sense because it counteracts the opposite "problem". Typically the round is cone-shaped from reloaded brass not resized properly and they nose-dive. It's pretty extreme measures that Charlie went to, but he came up with a solution that does work. If you're having problems and want to follow this recipe, I will 100% support it and I don't think you can go wrong with it.

Using new brass, well re-sized brass, casepro or for whatever reason your situation makes it work; you may not need to. When I shoot new brass loaded OAL 1.175" it works all the time. Mag bodies vary, spring tension vary, ammo vary. Obviously there are some uncovered differences that causes problems for some and not for others. I don't think the factory mags are perfect in any way. I've done quite a bit of work on creating a magazine that can contain 21 reloadable rounds with Beven Gram's help and creating my own pads. It has worked great for me. I do see that the mag bodies vary and I would like to see them wider. In fact, after the shot show and when I get back from my trip to Norway I will work on trying to "blow them out" to make the bodies about 0.020" wider. If we succeed in this, maybe the bodies can conform to a standard that will be better and more accepting of reloaded ammo. Again, if you're not having a lot of problems, don't sweat it. The ultimate goal is obviously to have a 21 or potentially a 22 round magazine that will work. The only way to gauge it is to use new brass, unsized. However, the preference is to have a mag that will accept reasonably reloadable rounds. I have friends around the world who have no problems, but all pay attention to details. The old computer saying still counts... garbage in = garbage out.

Listen to all of it, take in and use what you need.

Eventually we'll figure it all out and maybe we can get some detailed answers from the factory. I'll be seeing them in a week from today and I'll be asking a lot of questions.

Edited by sinnsyk, 08 January 2009 - 09:21 PM.

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