[Fireant]

70 plus shooters with only 5 stages/squads? Someone asked me for an idea on how to handle a club that has grown, really doubled in size. I was thinking and could not really come up with any good ideas other then to run a AM set of squads and then a PM set of squads. Do any of your clubs run 70 - 80 shooters through 5 stages in 4 hours or less?

This post has been edited by Fireant: 26 December 2008 - 07:34 PM

[kimel]

That would be tough. Not impossible, but no where close to easy. Everyone is going to have work hard to make it go.

If you figure 3 minutes per shooter you have 3.5 hours at 70 shooters with no transition between stages. Five stages means 5 x say 6 minutes to read the WSB and walk-thru. Now you are at 4 hours. If transition between bays takes any time at all you just busted your 4 hour mark.

Stages that are likely to result in re-shoots or that take too long to reset will destroy your time line.

Can you run shooters in a faster than 3 minute turn around? Sure, but a lot depends on the stage design.

Good luck!

[Nik Habicht]

Fireant, on Dec 26 2008, 09:29 PM, said:

70 plus shooters with only 5 stages/squads? Someone asked me for an idea on how to handle a club that has grown, really doubled in size. I was thinking and could not really come up with any good ideas other then to run a AM set of squads and then a PM set of squads. Do any of your clubs run 70 - 80 shooters through 5 stages in 4 hours or less?

70/5 is tough --- timing of stages/pits becomes critical, in the sense that stages need to tweaked to take roughly the same time to reset, so squads can rotate smoothly. We addressed some of that at CJ by taking movers out of the largest of field courses, holding the round count down on stages that use multiple movers, and on occasion putting two stages in the same pit --- especially if the classifier is anything but a multi-stage standards. (Timing improves by adding a short, or medium stage to the classifier, effectively you're shooting six stages in five pits. Another tip: If firing the short stage after the classifier make it an unloaded start and build it a bit further downrange; that way the classifier can be scored (with a delegate) and pasted while the shooter is running stage 6.)

An ideal squad contains at least 8 shooters (Shooter, RO, Scorekeeper, on deck, just shot/reloading/fixing gear, and three people to help with reset) but no more than 10-12 shooters. If you're regularly getting 70, expanding to seven stages would be the right move; expanding to six may help. Four hours or less may be a tall order at that point --- but you'll have the ability to build a quality match, like Old Bridge manages to.

CJ --- back in the dark ages, before the pits were built --- used to run AM and PM sessions on the range. That made for a long day for match staff (somebody's got to be around for consistencies sake) and for set-up/teardown difficulties, especially through the winter, when it gets dark earlier.....

I believe York is using pre-registration and capping entries every/most months.....

[kgunz11]

Sounds like the club hasn't grown but the participation has. Maybe if the club grew a little bit it would be able to handle the extra shooters that are showing up.

[Nik Habicht]

For what it's worth, at CJ we're seeing 55 shooters pretty regularly, and hitting between 65-75 a couple of times a year. We build a sixth stage regularly in the classifier pit; we build a sixth pit on an as needed basis.

Set-up starts around 8, walkthrough by 10 if we're lucky, later if we don't have enough help building. We're typically packed up and off the range by 3 p.m. or so --- but due to logistics we're one of the fastest clubs to tear down. (We have a 6'X8' flatbed trailer with h-shaped brackets creating a rack for walls and wall braces above the deck on each stage. Teardown consists of stacking targets stands, poppers, movers, faultline, target sticks, etc. on the flatbed, lifting fence sections on the top rack, and finally stacking the braces on top of the fence sections. If the whole squad pitches in we can tear down a pit in about ten minutes. Driving the carts into the garage, collecting scoresheets and making a trash run takes a few more minutes, but the whole match comes down in less than an hour --- even if we're waiting on a squad of stragglers....)

[Scooter]

Our IDPA club has been getting 80-90 shooters regularly. We would shoot 5 stages, starting at 9ish and be completely done including tear down and awards by around 2-2:30. The range recently got 3 more bays. The last match we shot 6 stages and still finished around the same time.

The key hangups we see is stages that are unequal length. You'll get a major backup if there are super short stages and long stages. Try to keep them about the same duration.

We have the designated RO's for each squad do a walk through of all the stages instead of a mass walk through. It's easier to have 15 RO's walk through the stages first then 70+ people. Each squad still get the walk through before they shoot. We usually have the RO's walk through around 8am during registration.

Registration is split up into members and non-members. Members are already in the computer database so they only have to sign the waiver and pay.

[walter hornby]

the easiest way to do this is split into two groups. one groups shoots in the am while the other group officiates, sets steel/tapes targets. Flip when first group is done. have a rule in place that if someone who shoots in the morning does not work in the afternoon his scores will be removed from the match. Make sure that your afternoon CRO's start on the stages they will be working on first thing in the morning so if there are any changes to be made to the walk through they are aware of it.

The math works out to 5 squads of 7 for am/pm rotation. allowing 5 minutes a shooter, which is lots usually, each squad will take 35 minutes to shoot one stage. so 5 times 35 is 175 minutes or 3 hours.

[jasmap]

We use open squadding at Rio Salado and it's worked pretty well for years.

[scirocco38s]

I run a local match that regularly runs 85+ shooters/match. We run 7 stages and start shooting after the walkthru at 10am. We are typically thru shooting and stowing away all materials by 400-430. 70 shooters thru 5 stagezs in 4 hours is going to be tough, but if you have the range for the day, then it is a piece of cake.
I setup the match the day before so I can look at the stages and check the angles of the shots and not be rushed. I have a small group of dedicated guys that help me set the stages and they shoot for free. Tear down is the responsibility of everyone and our props are light and quick to store.
What you are describing is not very difficult to accomplish with some good planning on your part, and a small group of helpers that dont mind helping for a few hours 1 afternoon /month.
Certaibn stages will bottleneck the match, so dont have 4 stages that are 20 rounds or less and then a monster that requires a lot of reset time. Time management is what running the match is about. If you have 2 short courses, try stacking them back to back and only start a squad on the first of the 2 and leave a buffer between them and the next squad. If you have more shooters and cannot, oh well that is part of the game also.

[Jim Norman]

There are a couple of additional considerations here.

One squad of 70 on one stage is the fastest total time to clear the match, no travel time between and only one reading of the WSB. Your match is very likely to shrink if you tried that. Adding stages does not shorten a match, it actually lengthens it. BUT adding stages means that our customers spend more time shooting and less standing around. SO, adding stages and squads, while taking longer to shoot can make your math more popular.

5 squads/stages for 70 shooters at a 3-1/2 minute clearance time, 5 minutes travel, 5 minute walk-thru and 1-1/2 minute reading of the WSB equates to a 297 minute match. Add one stage and make the squads a bit smaller and your match grows to 309 minutes, 7 stages with 10 shooters per squad makes for a 320 minute match. Downtime between shooting however decreases with this formula.

Just for the record, we run 7 stages in 7 pits at Old Bridge each month. We have from time to time filled the match at over 70 people, Usually start shooting around 1015 and usually are picked up and heading to the diner by 1600. This is accomplished by our shooters not dallying on the stages.

[Neomet]

As Jason said the open squading at Rio works well. Tuesday Night Steel routinely sees over 135 shooters on 4 stages. This moves a little faster than USPSA matches as you don't scoring is faster but still to be able to get through 4 stages in under 3 hours with that many shooters speaks well for the system.

The other thing that will help is having the members of the squad who are resetting the stage really busting their asses. An inordinate amount of time can be added to your day if it takes even just 2-3 extra minutes to reset the stage after every shooter.

[AZ Stats Chic]

jasmap, on Dec 26 2008, 09:44 PM, said:

We use open squadding at Rio Salado and it's worked pretty well for years.

This past Tuesday night (1/13/2009) for the weekly "Tuesday-Night-Steel", we started at 3:00 PM with check-in and ended (left the range, everything torn down) at 9:00 PM. We ran 148 competitors through using open squadding.

A2Chic

Rio TNS

Practical Pistol Home page

[calishootr]

we run 3 bays with 2 stages per bay, usually a longer field course coupled w/ a short 'squirt' stage, we DO NOT do open squadding anymore that went by the wayside yrs ago after most if not all of our RO's got fed up with being on a stage for 6 hrs with no relief or ability to shootthe match themselves...we routinely run 50ish shooters w/ the 6 stages in 3 squads, one for each bay, typically we can start shooting by 10am and be packed up and offthe range by 3ish pm the last time we ran 50 shooters

[Aristotle]

scirocco38s, on Dec 26 2008, 09:07 PM, said:

I run a local match that regularly runs 85+ shooters/match. We run 7 stages and start shooting after the walkthru at 10am. We are typically thru shooting and stowing away all materials by 400-430. 70 shooters thru 5 stagezs in 4 hours is going to be tough, but if you have the range for the day, then it is a piece of cake.
I setup the match the day before so I can look at the stages and check the angles of the shots and not be rushed. I have a small group of dedicated guys that help me set the stages and they shoot for free. Tear down is the responsibility of everyone and our props are light and quick to store.
What you are describing is not very difficult to accomplish with some good planning on your part, and a small group of helpers that dont mind helping for a few hours 1 afternoon /month.
Certaibn stages will bottleneck the match, so dont have 4 stages that are 20 rounds or less and then a monster that requires a lot of reset time. Time management is what running the match is about. If you have 2 short courses, try stacking them back to back and only start a squad on the first of the 2 and leave a buffer between them and the next squad. If you have more shooters and cannot, oh well that is part of the game also.

+1. I run a club here where we were getting 75-85 people a match and I had to go from 6 stages, to 7. I did one with 8 stages, but it did start to bottle neck at places and it didn't go any faster with 75 shooters. Then again there was also a chrono. Ideally, like as what was said earlier, more stages, and better spaced stages with roundcount and stage set up taken into consideration.

In the end, it still has to satisfy one thing, will it be fun to shoot and have them coming back. I'm willing to stay a "little" later for a good quality match with fun/different stages. Who wants to leave when their having fun?

I have a 17 month at home as well, and I can certainly appreciate getting back to that as soon as possible, especially since I've already dedicated 5-10 hours of my work before the match even starts.

This post has been edited by Aristotle: 17 September 2009 - 12:49 PM

[TMC]

Our club has 2 matches per month and we trypically get 60-65 shooters. We always have 5 stages and we break into 5 squads. We have had an many as 90 broken into 5 squads. We start shooting at around 9:30 and finish by 2:00-3:00.

At our club its not the number of shooters but the mix of stages. If all the stages run about the same time (to shoot and reset) the bays don't get backed up but when you have 1 or 2 long stages and the rest ara short you have a bottle neck.

Stage balance is a big factor in keeping the squads from backing up.

[oddjob]

The club I shoot at has up to 50+ shooters for four stages. Open squadding with a dedicated morning/afternoon r/o's (they get a discount on the match fee). One of my observations for delays has been when groups of friends shoot together and move stage to stage only together. Now there's nothing wrong with shooting with friends, but I've noticed where a stage won't have tapers/brassers, but there are people on a stage they already have shot waiting for friends to finish. Solution??? Don't really think there is one for this situation. I'm guilty as anyone else!!

[Punkin Chunker]

oddjob, on Sep 18 2009, 01:13 AM, said:

The club I shoot at has up to 50+ shooters for four stages. Open squadding with a dedicated morning/afternoon r/o's (they get a discount on the match fee). One of my observations for delays has been when groups of friends shoot together and move stage to stage only together. Now there's nothing wrong with shooting with friends, but I've noticed where a stage won't have tapers/brassers, but there are people on a stage they already have shot waiting for friends to finish. Solution??? Don't really think there is one for this situation. I'm guilty as anyone else!!

Went to a match that had open squadding, saw what you saw, plus a couple of other observations:

- As happens with many matches, there was a short stage, a few moderate stages, and one "steroid" stage, that took the longest. Everything backed up here -- when it was over, all the other stages were packed over an hour before this stage ended.

- Shooters traveled in groups, groups gabbed, pasting slowed.

- Shooters could sign up at multiple stages, but then had to try to find out where they were in the stack if they went to shoot another stage, then returned.

Suggestions that came out of it from one of the shooters:

- mini-squadding, 4-6 shooters together on a squad. On each stage, one squad would be shooting while the one behind it would be pasting & resetting, waiting their turn. If there was no squad behind it, then the squad shooting would have to handle its own pasting/resetting. A squad would have to be present for pasting/resetting to shoot in its turn, or go to the bottom of the stack.

- Squad cards could be lined up on a table or board so shooters could see where their squad was in a stack.

- Stages which took the longest should be dupllicated, if the resources are available. Getting stacked up on a quick-moving stage isn't so bad. Getting stacked up on a field course sucks.

- If at all possible, ROs need to be able to shoot first, even if it means holding the match up for a few minutes. ROs bust their butts, and in a lot of cases wind up shooting toward the end, or whenever, after getting tired, fussed at, etc. Let 'em shoot when they're fresh.

[MoNsTeR]

Aurora pretty regularly runs 70 shooters through 5 stages with 4 squads (we double up one berm and stay hot). 17-18 shooters per squad is a bummer for sure, but everyone just deals with it. With that many shooters we'll start at 9:30 or so and finish by 2:00-3:00. I know some clubs do AM/PM arrangements but in ECO to my knowledge we've never tried that. Honestly as long as the squads are even & well-populated with ROs, and everyone keeps up the pace, this kind of turnout isn't really a problem.

[CHA-LEE]

I think the best thing you can do is to pick stages that take about the same amount of time to shoot per berm. That way there is a minimal bottle neck as possible on any single stage as every squad should finish their stage at about the same time. This is either done by having less squads and putting stage gaps between the squads. The “Gap” stages are usually the fast stages that do not take much time to shoot. The other way to balance it out is to put two speed shoot style stages on a single berm. For one of our local matches we have 5 stages but only 4 berms to use. So we always put the classifier and the speed shoot stages together on the same berm. Then we keep the shooters hot between the two as they shoot both one after the other. But even when doing this we need to pick an appropriate classifier that isn’t too long or multi string intensive, or it becomes the bottle neck “Berm” for the match.

With large squads your biggest challenge is in keeping the distractions to a minimum and the working to a maximum. Its really easy for a big squad of shooters to assume that someone else will be brassing, taping, ROing, etc and then it starts to slow down because you have 3 guys working and 15 dicking around telling stories. If you keep the whole squad involved in resetting the stage after the shooter is done then you can cycle through shooters pretty fast. Most of the time people don’t have a problem with the fast shooter cycle time because there is enough people on the squad to have more than enough delay before your turn to shoot to properly understand and program the stage.

Another thing to absolutely avoid is squads jumping stages. That throws a huge monkey wrench into the process because of not only the confusion but the added time of having to rearrange the squads to shoot the stages that they skipped over. No time is saved by jumping stages unless you have a huge gap of stages to shoot ahead of the bottle neck squad, usually at least 2 – 3 stage gap of free stages is needed to successfully jump stages and not cause more of a delay than simply waiting for the current squad to finish on the stage.