[PINMAN44]

I saw a crossfit pull up and I was concerned about the motion.

[XRe]

PINMAN44, on Dec 16 2008, 05:37 PM, said:

I saw a crossfit pull up and I was concerned about the motion.

You mean a kipping pullup? Why would that concern you?

[PINMAN44]

Yes XRE. First off I would like to say I love seeing people involved with fitness or some area of fitness. It's great that people take such an interest in a society that is becoming more obese and sedentary. I feel the issue with the Kipping pull up is that people who suffer from Cervical, Thoracic, Lumbar or Sacrum issues would not benefit from this motion. The explosive nature can potentially harm those who suffer from DDD, Spondylolysis, and especially Pars Inter- articularis. I have seen people who suffer from pars cause themselves more harm than good. Pars can become worse with any activity that extends or Rotates the back. Now I see that to be a problem with this movement, and then you add the explosive nature which can only lead to more problems with fractures. The nature of the pull up can be great for strengthening the muscles of the back (Lats, Rhomboids, Traps, Teres etc.), however if you have genetic disabilities especially in your cervical spine you can cause repeated traumas and or ailments that will destroy your progress. I feel that people can use exercises from crossfit, but not all people should follow the routines provided due to certain limitations they may possess. People are different, they have different genetic abilities and disabilities therefore they should seek advice from the professional one on one and make a customized routine based on what would benefit them rather than potentially hurt them.

XRE I hope you don't find this disrespectful in nature, once again I feel that these programs can be beneficial but with minor adjustments for the individual. It's nice to focus on people in a macro way, but the individual needs to have their specific needs addressed.

Robby O.

[XRe]

PINMAN44, on Dec 16 2008, 08:26 PM, said:

I feel the issue with the Kipping pull up is that people who suffer from Cervical, Thoracic, Lumbar or Sacrum issues would not benefit from this motion. ... I feel that people can use exercises from crossfit, but not all people should follow the routines provided due to certain limitations they may possess. People are different, they have different genetic abilities and disabilities therefore they should seek advice from the professional one on one and make a customized routine based on what would benefit them rather than potentially hurt them.

So... in other words, everyone should be certain of their health (especially those who have suffered injury) before engaging in vigorous activity, and be certain that such activity will not result in further injury to them? Sure. No doubt

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XRE I hope you don't find this disrespectful in nature

Not at all, man - I was just curious what you were going to come back with

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It's nice to focus on people in a macro way, but the individual needs to have their specific needs addressed.

There's a lot of encouragement to folks to scale the workouts down to the meet their needs - and if they're not capable of doing a particular exercise, they should substitute it for something appropriate. The programming that's followed is somewhat general, and the workouts are written to challenge fit athletes with the warning that everyone should evaluate the workout and scale/sub it as needed to provide a challenge for their individual situation. The folks at CrossFit HQ are actually pretty sensitive to this - and it seems like they're frequently frustrated that this point gets missed in all their info (there's a "Start Here" link on the home page that is meant to get that across, but folks frequently skip right past it, apparently, and try to dive in head first without thinking about it...)

For most of us, the kip is actually an interesting movement, in that the pullup suddenly involves core musculature as well as lats and biceps. But, if you're healing a shoulder injury (as Jake is - from doing clapping handstand pushups... madman...), they're not the best bet - and the bar you do them on can be a problem, too, if it doesn't flex enough (at least, with one type of kip). I can definitely see where back injuries could be bad with it. Mine doesn't get bothered by kipping pullups, seemingly... they just wear my abs out on top of nuking my biceps and lats...

[PINMAN44]

XRE:

"So... in other words, everyone should be certain of their health (especially those who have suffered injury) before engaging in vigorous activity, and be certain that such activity will not result in further injury to them? Sure. No doubt"


Yes I believe intelligent individuals would make sure that they are cleared to perform certain movements to prevent further injury. No offense.

Regular physicals, blood tests screening etc.

Now let's see you said that the KIPPING PULLUP involves core musculature... Hmm I know alot of CORE MOVEMENTS that do the exact same thing with out destroying your deltoids and spine. The amount of force exerted on the structure of the shoulder Acromion, rotator cuff, clavicle etc. is horrific when this motion is performed.

So to strengthen these auxiliary muscles you in essence will go through a process (The Kipping Pull Up) in order to destroy the infrastructure?

That's like trying to build a house with no foundation. Doesn't work well.

Comeon XRE please tell me that this is not the method to your madness. You mention that Jake has a shoulder injury? Do you know that a shoulder set back as serious as a rotator cuff tear could set a person of for almost a full year. All the gains he potentially made are going to atrophy.

It's a shame that he sustained an injury and I hope he gets well soon. Most professional bodybuilders sustain one minor injury a year, they protect themselves because any set back will cost them time and tissue.

Anyways if you want to have a more in depth discussion shoot me your number and we can rant a little more.

Once again no disrespect to you, I just do not understand the logic behind hurting one's self

Robby O.

[XRe]

PINMAN44, on Dec 16 2008, 09:30 PM, said:

Yes I believe intelligent individuals would make sure that they are cleared to perform certain movements to prevent further injury. No offense.

Where did you get the impression that that would offend?

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Now let's see you said that the KIPPING PULLUP involves core musculature... Hmm I know alot of CORE MOVEMENTS that do the exact same thing with out destroying your deltoids and spine. The amount of force exerted on the structure of the shoulder Acromion, rotator cuff, clavicle etc. is horrific when this motion is performed.

Funny, my spine and delts seem to be just fine - and the thousands and thousands of folks doing these things seem to have the same results, so...

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So to strengthen these auxiliary muscles you in essence will go through a process (The Kipping Pull Up) in order to destroy the infrastructure?

Yeah, that's exactly what I said Yep, I only do kipping pullups to work my core, and that's absolutely my only reason for doing them...

Of course, now we see you have an axe to grind, which is where I thought you might be heading on the first post...

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Comeon XRE please tell me that this is not the method to your madness.

This is laughable. Where did you get that idea in the first place. I mention that doing a particular exercise has some additional benefit in addition to the primary areas it works, and you get from that this? Get real, man...

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You mention that Jake has a shoulder injury? Do you know that a shoulder set back as serious as a rotator cuff tear could set a person of for almost a full year. All the gains he potentially made are going to atrophy.

I'm well aware of the risks of what different injuries can cause. I suppose that the risk of sucking up a bullet due to a ricochet or AD is reason enough to stay off the gun range, too. Man, I better stop shooting. The only way to avoid injury is to stay home on the couch. I'm not going to stop jogging (with proper technique) so I don't get hit by a car. I'm not going to stop working out, or competing in physical sports, because I might get injured. I am sensitive to what my body is telling me, I do scale or sub the work I'm doing to match my current (ie, that day) capabilities. How do you know what Jake is up to, and what the state of his muscular development is, anyway? Maybe you should ask him...

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Once again no disrespect to you, I just do not understand the logic behind hurting one's self

Again, where do you think you're disrespecting me? Maybe by connecting things that don't actually have connections, but... I appreciate what you're trying to say, and the admonition to be sensitive to what your body is telling you, and what is appropriate for your abilities is a very valid one, and one that anyone with half a brain would take seriously. The notion that we're out here just looking for ways to purposefully hurt ourselves to make minor gains in some other small area is simply absurd, though. I don't know what to do with that, other than laugh at it....

[PINMAN44]

Whoa chill. I never said that you are out to hurt yourself, I'm explaining how you could be indirectly hurting yourself (NOT KNOWING) and that that the motions that you choose to use are definitely not good for people with genetic back and shoulder disorders. Totally blowing what I said out of proportion. The whole start of this conversation was because of the motion of the KIP pull up itself. It isn't one of the better movements. My point was that you can effectively train your core and auxiliaries without that motion. You'll find that I didn't get where I'm today by not taking risks. I take calculated risks. I maximize my gains through motions that are efficient and effective. You do not have to go out an over exert yourself to get great results. At my best I was only in the gym two-three times a week for 45 minutes and my stats were and still are extremely impressive. Not trying to beat on my chest there, this isn't a pissing contest.

And well about Jake, you stated he hurt himself doing CLAPPING HANDSTAND PUSHUPS... I'm guessing that's a crossfit concept??? I remember handstand pushups without the clapping, Not seeing the benefit, especially when there are tons of ways to effectively train those lagging areas without a risk like falling flat on your face. I never heard of Ronnie Coleman, Dexter Jackson, even top fitness competitors like Julien Greaux doing them?

Sounds like that was beneficial.

I only hope that he makes a quick recovery and that he doesn't have to suffer like others I know. Recovery for shoulder surgery is a bitch.

That old saying no pain no gain means nothing if you end up in a wheel chair.

Anyways you can reply to this however you want, I'm kind of sick of ranting. Not really going to entertain this conversation any longer. But if you would like to throw around some ideas shoot me a PM with your cell, it would be great to speak with you.

Robby O.

[XRe]

PINMAN44, on Dec 17 2008, 12:49 AM, said:

Whoa chill. I never said that you are out to hurt yourself,

Go re-read what you wrote again. Sarcastic, condescending tone... Putting words in my mouth... Always good for having a polite conversations

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I'm explaining how you could be indirectly hurting yourself (NOT KNOWING) and that that the motions that you choose to use are definitely not good for people with genetic back and shoulder disorders.

There are a lot of things that can be bad for people who are predisposed to have a bad time with them, or who are injured and shouldn't engage in an activity that could make their injury worse. Duh. You made the point, I agreed with it. Move on.

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Totally blowing what I said out of proportion.

You mean with phrases like "Comeon (sic) XRE, tell me this isn't the method to your madness" ???

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The whole start of this conversation was because of the motion of the KIP pull up itself. It isn't one of the better movements. My point was that you can effectively train your core and auxiliaries without that motion.

And you read far too much into what I said about kips working more muscles than straight pullups. I work my core through a very wide variety of movements - kipping pullups are the last place I go for core. That doesn't change the fact that my core feels them when I do them.

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You'll find that I didn't get where I'm today by not taking risks.

And you're where today?

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I take calculated risks. I maximize my gains through motions that are efficient and effective. You do not have to go out an over exert yourself to get great results. At my best I was only in the gym two-three times a week for 45 minutes and my stats were and still are extremely impressive. Not trying to beat on my chest there, this isn't a pissing contest.

So, you're a muscle head, is that what you're saying?

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And well about Jake, you stated he hurt himself doing CLAPPING HANDSTAND PUSHUPS... I'm guessing that's a crossfit concept???

Not at all.

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I remember handstand pushups without the clapping, Not seeing the benefit, especially when there are tons of ways to effectively train those lagging areas without a risk like falling flat on your face. I never heard of Ronnie Coleman, Dexter Jackson, even top fitness competitors like Julien Greaux doing them?

You're not going to find any crossfitters who are impressed by body builders. A body building workout is literally the absolute last thing I'm interested in.

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Sounds like that was beneficial.

See, there's that sarcasm again

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Anyways you can reply to this however you want, I'm kind of sick of ranting. Not really going to entertain this conversation any longer.

You came in here, man, not the other way around. Typical troll. Come in, take a dump on everything, run away when you get some resistance. You had the option of contacting me to discuss it via PM, but chose to go public. I'm not interested in a private conversation with you about it.

[PINMAN44]

Hey man do whatever you want to do, that is your right. But I have never sustained an injury because of a workout. I had genetic fracture problems growing up and bodybuilding helped save me. And where I mean how far I've come... If you would like some off season or on season photos I'd be more than happy to send them your way. You can call us muscle heads, gym rats, whatever none of that bothers me. All I know is that my friends are some of the most athletic and ripped human specimens ever. It is obvious that you and I train differently for different reasons. I wish you good luck with your exercise and I hope your injuries heal soon.

[Jake Di Vita]

Pinman,

Truly, all I can say is wow...you really have no idea what the CrossFit program is or how it works.

First off, you are comparing CrossFitters to body builders and "fitness" competitors. That is not what CrossFit is about. As soon as I saw you listing Ronnie Coleman, I just about had to take a 5 minute walk. We want nothing to do with conventional body building and fitness competitors....because quite simply they aren't fit as we define them in CrossFit. Send all the pictures you would like, but I'm talking about actual horsepower here. Yes, 99% of the time, there is a difference.

Secondly...yes...I injured myself. Injuries happen when you train with intensity. I just happened to do it doing something stupid....and ONLY because I didn't maintain proper form. Since then, about 2 months ago, I have been still training and nearly completely rehabbed a serious shoulder injury (I couldn't lift my arm for a week) by CrossFitting. Oh, and FYI, the clapping handstand pushup is not a CrossFit thing. I've never even seen them mention it....I did this totally on my own.

Thirdly, the kipping pull-up is a better movement than the strict pullup for several reasons. First, the forward motion of the kip is actually very good for a healthy shoulder. It increases strength and flexibility through the full range of motion. The more muscle groups an exercise involves, the better it normally is. The body was built to work as a unit, why should it be trained differently? Secondly, it has the capability of generating way more power than the conventional pullup. Why is this important? I'm glad you asked. Time to get into rudimentary physics for a second.

Force x Distance = Work. Work / Time = Average Power. Average Power is exactly equal to Intensity. Intensity is the independent variable most commonly associated with favorable adaptation. In other words, increasing the force, or decreasing the time you do it in, increases your overall power output which is the most important thing in exercise.

CrossFit is a universally scalable program. You need to understand something....these workouts are designed to cripple olympic athletes. The majority of the people can quite literally hurt or kill themselves by jumping into it head first. For that reason, we have a mandate as CrossFit trainers.

Mechanics -> Consistency -> Intensity

What this means is, first off, you need to have the mechanics down. You need to have correct mechanics in these exercises before anything else. This is something we train with pvc at first. Once the mechanics are down, you need consistency. This is a two-fold issue. You need to be able to perform the movement consistently rep after rep and have consistency in the frequency of your work outs. After this, and only after this, intensity is added. What level of intensity? Relative intensity. Relative to each individual.

In terms of safety, how many programs do you know of that operate this way? We also base our exercises around functional movement. Functional movement has several criteria:

-They are natural. Which means they are found in nature. They have the most efficiency of movement.
-They are essential to independent living, life, and quality of life.
-They are compound movements, yet irreducible.
-They operate in a wave of contraction from core to extremity. Highest force, lowest velocity fires first, then medium force, medium velocity, low force, high velocity.
-They are safe (relative to non-functional movement) post 1RM loads.
-Most importantly, they move large loads (Force), long distance (Distance), quickly (Time).

Let me talk in terms of our elderly population. What is the reason why a lot of them end up in a home? It isn't disease, although sometimes Alzheimers (which is being looked at as Type 3 diabetes now - but that's another discussion). It's decrepitude. When Grandma falls down and literally can't get up - or she can't pick anything up off the ground, she becomes a risk to herself and others (grandchildren for example). Decrepitude generally starts at 20 for women and 30 for men. I can't tell you the number of testimonials I've read from our elderly generation praising what CrossFit has done for them.

What we do is train utilizing constantly varied functional movement executed at high intensity. We focus on training the body through all metabolic pathways and improving the 10 general physical skills. What CrossFit does is improve work capacity across broad time, modal, and age domains.

Please...next time you want to criticize what we are doing, take some time and do some research into it. Who knows...maybe even try it for a month so you get some practical hands on knowledge.

[PINMAN44]

Jake:

Inciteful. But why aren't our Olympic athletes using Crossfit? Why is it that you cannot perform what most Olympians do? Can you beat Michael Phelps? I'm pretty sure if you could you would be doing so. Yes I'm a bodybuilder. I don't injure myself, my physical appearance is great, and I'm fit from what my blood results and physical screenings state. Now I have looked at the Cross fit program and they have legitimate Olympic moves and core exercises. But anything taken to an excess can be dangerous. Not saying that there are not horrible programs listed in many bodybuilding magazines and books etc. I have worked with elderly people one on one, something my education has provided me. Not once was it anything of the Kipping nature lol. Most of the time spent with these patients were in a pool performing basic compound exercises in water. (hydrotherapy) I think it is great that Crossfit is involving more people in the idea of fitness. But one doesn't have to go to any extreme to be fit. Frequency, Intensity, Time, Type. Moderation is the key to living a good life and being balanced. Those who live in excess eventually get hurt. You said you did something stupid which hurt you. I need an explanation on that. If you are so hell bent on becoming more physically fit, then why have you potentially set yourself back by hurting yourself? Then you say that you feel pain when you perform the Kipping pullups. Why don't you let yourself heal? You are only putting yourself at great risk of set back. It's all stated here in your quote...

Oh man...lots been goin' on.

Injured my shoulder bad about two months ago doing something stupid...been rehabbing that the entire time. Probably back to about 90% now. How do you know it's 90 percent? Have you had a recent MRI? Are you getting better or are you trying to make up for lost time with the mistake you made?

Been strict zoning for a few weeks as well....already seeing massive changes in body composition.

Also got Level 1 certified about a month ago at Rogue Fitness, and hopefully opening up a box soon.

Did a modified form of Angie today (Jumping pull-ups....the kip is where I feel my shoulder injury the most). That hurt...but hey, it doesn't have to be fun to be fun right? wink.gif That doesn't sound very smart Jake, Pain is a great indicator.

Training to not suck at life,
Jake

You don't suck at life, look how successful you are with your shooting and how far you have come with your body transformation. Any gains are progress that you should be happy with.

You know that we are always going to butt heads on this issue. But frankly I just don't want you to mess yourself up. Your a grandmaster and a great one at that. An injury like a tear in your shoulder could mess up your progress with shooting. Shit happens we all know that, but if you take smart risks and evaluate what needs to be done then you will minimize them.

We all know where we stand on this issue, nothing more really needs to be said. I just hope you recover quickly and get back to shooting full bore.

Catch you later

Rob

This post has been edited by PINMAN44: 17 December 2008 - 11:45 AM

[Jake Di Vita]

Where do I start...

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Inciteful. But why aren't our Olympic athletes using Crossfit?

Because CrossFit is a GPP (General Physical Preparedness) program over all else...also there are Olympians using CrossFit. One example is Erin Cafaro

CrossFit also never stated They were making the best athletes, only the fittest.

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Why is it that you cannot perform what most Olympians do?

Because I'm not an Olympian, I don't specify in only 1 area I want to get better in, that is not a goal of mine, and I never claimed it was. That's like me asking you why you aren't an Olympian. I do know one thing though, there is an offer out there for $10,000 to find an athlete that can beat Jason Khalipa (08 CF Games winner) in any reasonable test of fitness. So far, there has been no takers.

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Can you beat Michael Phelps?

In swimming? Absolutely not. And I never claimed I could. Could I beat him in other things that test physical capacity? Absolutely.

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Yes I'm a bodybuilder. I don't injure myself, my physical appearance is great, and I'm fit from what my blood results and physical screenings state.

Good job. Blood results and physical screening are not as accurate rulers as performance. Since you are a fan of Olympic lifting, do me a favor and do Grace next time you hit the gym. Grace is 135# Clean and Jerk, 30 reps for time. From ground to full extension over head on each rep is only requirement.

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I have worked with elderly people one on one, something my education has provided me. Not once was it anything of the Kipping nature lol.

Where did I ever say it had to be? I stated that kipping is useful in that it helps you to generate more power. The needs of our elderly and olympic athletes differ by degree, not by kind. For example, how often do you see a Grandfather have a difficult time getting up off the couch. Do you think he would have a hard time doing that if he could overhead squat 50% of his bodyweight? As I said earlier, functional movements are required for independent living and quality of life. Will I train them the same as an Olympian? Absolutely not, but I'm also going to train them in ways that help their everyday life and makes them better and more functional - which isn't in a pool. I go in a pool when I want to swim...

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But one doesn't have to go to any extreme to be fit.

Forging Elite Fitness is their motto...For Elite fitness, you have to have intensity in your training. That being said, every person chooses the level of fitness they want to put out the effort to attain.

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You said you did something stupid which hurt you. I need an explanation on that. If you are so hell bent on becoming more physically fit, then why have you potentially set yourself back by hurting yourself? Then you say that you feel pain when you perform the Kipping pullups. Why don't you let yourself heal? You are only putting yourself at great risk of set back. It's all stated here in your quote...

What, do you think I did it on purpose? Did you ever fall off your bike when you were first learning to ride it? Yeah...I feel pain when I perform kipping pullups....which is why I haven't done a kipping pullup other than to check on my shoulder since I injured it....which I directly stated I subbed jumping pullups in place of kipping pullups later in the post you quoted because jumping pullups put no stress at all on my injury.

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You don't suck at life, look how successful you are with your shooting and how far you have come with your body transformation. Any gains are progress that you should be happy with.

Thank you, but that was just a joke. Self depreciating humor and all that. Fun.

I just want you to understand that CrossFit is not about being as strong as possible while ignoring your health. Fitness in itself is a built in buffer to sickness. Injuries happen when training, but the training itself does a great deal to prevent further injuries from happening. CF had recently been instituted in BUD/S, and they have reported overwhelming decrease in O course time, plus less than half as many rollbacks from injury. Yes...like anything else you can hurt yourself doing it, but with proper instruction, training, and common sense, it can be a tool you can use that is better than anything else out there.

Increasing work capacity across broad time, modal, and age domains. That age part doesn't happen with chronic injury.

[PINMAN44]

I fell off my bike once. I made sure that I was wearing a helmet, elbow pads etc... Clapping handstand push ups not my cup of tea thanks.

Anyways you asked about clean and jerk. Not a good motion for me being that what I suffered from early in life was Spondy. Therefore doing them wouldn't be too smart

They were a motion that I would perform only 1 month out of the year for explosive tissue training and fast twitch muscle fiber recruitment. My number was 235 for 6-8 for 1set. Max was around 265 weighing about 171. Wouldn't be much of a challenge for me if I still was performing them.

I don't do them anymore because they are not necessary for my goals and could potentially cause injury etc. They were sport oriented at the time.

I follow basic compound and aux. motions and consistently change weight, tempo, and the exercise in order to gain dense and good quality tissue.



I lift once a week in circuit based movements.

My goals are not to be the best in endurance, rather be all around fit and happy. Which I possess.

Anyways be safe.

Good luck with your training!

[Jake Di Vita]

Thanks...that tells me all I need to know right there...

[PINMAN44]

Sarcasm?

[Jake Di Vita]

Not even a little bit of sarcasm at all actually.

[PINMAN44]

So what are you inferring?

[PINMAN44]

Say what you need to say.

[Calamity Jane]

I've just spent the last 15 minutes getting caught up on this thread...and I really can't decide who can piss the farthest

I thought a little comic relief was needed

[Flexmoney]

Closed.

Cool off and I'll clean it out and re-open.

- Admin.