[RLSMITH]

I just start reloading recenty with a new Dillon 650. I have loaded for about 20 years on my single stage for rifle only, so am new to the world of progresive pistol reloading but not to the world of reloading. My question is when loading "long" OAL (1.199) for my IPSC guns in 40SW should my loaded rounds case guage correctly in a EGW case guage? When I drop a sized case in the guage it goes in all the way, but when I drop a loaded round in, it stops at the extractor groove. I guess I should tell everyone what my load consist of:
-- mixed brass
-- precision 185grn & 200 grn
-- 4.4 grns of VV N320
-- WSRP
-- OAL 1.199-1.200

Probably a simple question for all you progresive guys (and gals) out there. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks...........

note: I did a several searchs on this already with no luck.

[Skywalker]

Funny,
your load is exactly the same (apart for primers, I use CCI) I load for 205 grs copper plated bullets in .40" SW.

You didn't mention you use the Factory Crimp Die, thus I would assume not.

Anyway, the case gauge is a real waste of ... rounds!

You'd better gauge all your bullets in your barrel, instead of a gauge.

I've discovered that a lot of bullets that won't pass the gauge test drop freely into the barrel chamber, thus are perfectly suited for my gun.

[Patrick Sweeney]

It is possible that the bullet is striking the forward part of the gauge. Try inserting a selection of sized cases (without bullets) and see what you get.

If the gauge rejects good brass because the bullet is binding, you can either try another gauge or have the front of yours reamed to clear the bullets. If the problem is the brass, then the gauge is doing its job.

The trick with gauges is to sort through them until you have a gauge that agrees with the gun. I sorted through six gauges for one Super Open gun. A picky gauge sorts out false negatives, so you have too much practice ammo. An easy gauge give you false positives, so you have a jammamatic round in your match bin. If I could not get a gauge to agree, I'd rather have a picky than an easy gauge.

Save the rejected ammo and try them in your gun at a practice session. Just don't mix that brass with the others when you police it up.

[Flexmoney]

Is you gauge setting on top of something?

I hold my gauge I my hand. My gauge is likely 1.125 for 40 (SAMMII spec?). So my rounds stick out the bottom.

The gauges are useless for checking OAL. But, there are vital to ensure the brass has been resized.

[RLSMITH]

Thanks to everyone for there help and advice!

Flex,
I to am holding the guage in my hand. It is an EGW which is marked 1.240? I have some factory rounds and they drop in all the way as does my sized (empty) brass. I am looking for a easy way to check my cases without having to take my barrel out everytime, but if that is what I must do..........? Could I have the size die screwed too far down or be putting too much crimp on ( how much is enough crimp)? My dies consist of: LEE EGW size die, Dillon powder die, LEE crimp die(std). Thanks for any help or suggestions!!!!!!!!!!

[Flexmoney]

Where is your bullet seating die???

Sounds like you are a die short.

The Lee FCD isn't for seating.

[RLSMITH]

Sorry Flex.....
I should have said "LEE seater die" not "crimp die". I have the standard set of Lee pistol dies from Midway. Only use the seater die. I bought a size die from EGW.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Wait, wait, wait....Sized cases fit, but the same cases loaded do not? Crimp. As in, too much. If the preceeding is not the situaiton, you simply have some hammered-base brass mixed in your supply, and the occasional too-big case can't be sized down, causing your problem.

Test and report back.

[EricW]

[Annoying Didactic Diversion ON]

One thing that I've learned after personally FUBARing many rounds out of a progressive, is when setting up for a run, to check and make sure the rounds are in spec at each station before I go to set up the next. It then becomes very obvious which station is causing the issue. When only checking rounds as they land in the bin, it can be tough to mentally reverse-engineer what's going on. This is especially true of chambering, since every station has the potential to cause it's own special issue to make a round not chamber properly.

[/Didactic Diversion]

[Singlestack]

Try using the EGW undersize sizeing die and I bet your guage problems dissapear.

I had the same problems until switching.

[Flexmoney]

OK...

Station 1 has the EGW/Lee undersized sizing die. Set so that it just barely touches the shell-plate when the handle is cycled all the way down.

?

Station 2 has the dillon powder die. Set so that it provides the minimum belling of the case mouth.

?

Station 3 Empty on the 650 (where the powder check would go).

?

Station 4 is the seating die AND crimp die from Lee.

?

I would highly suggest getting the Lee Factory Crimp Die (FDC) for station 5, then backing off the seating die in station 4 so that it only seats...doesn't crimp. Then the FDC in station 5 can removed the bell & size the finished round. (No need to crimp, just straighten out the belling. )


You can also take some of you loaded rounds that fail the gauge and flip them around...see if they start in the gauge backward.

Report back.

[Erik Warren]

I must respectfully disagree with the esteemed gentleman from Michigan; I think the problem is lack of crimp. You need to remove the bell (introduced at the powder drop station) from the case mouth. This is best done with a taper crimp die following the bullet seating station.

Using an old combination seat & crimp die is both a heretical misuse of a modern progressive reloading press and a major pain in the ass. It's often difficult to isolate the two tasks. It's much easier to back out the taper on the combination die, using it only for seating, and follow it with a taper crimp or "Factory Crimp" die in the next station.

IIRC, the case mouth of a loaded .40S&W round should be about .422" or .423".

[RLSMITH]

First of all let me say that you guys are the greatest!!! For an inexperienced "progresive" reloader as myself to have a problem and so many of you more seasoned veterans offer up your help and advice so willingly is a welcome surprise in todays times. Now to add and follow up................I have loaded about 1300 rnds total on this press ( 750rnds of 38super comp for my shooting buddy and 550rnds for my 40sw). The gun that these rnds will be for is my 40sw with a Nowlin brl. I also have an SV INFINITY in 40sw with Schuman brl , but it is for sale. After I got home today, I tried my loaded rnds in both the Nowlin and schuman brls, and the "case guage". To my surprise every rnd fell right in the Nowlin brl but did not do the same in the schuman or the case guage? Actually..... none of them fell in the schuman or the guage. On the item of the Lee factory crimp die: I tried to order it from midway when i ordered the dies and the guy I spoke with said he'd been shooting 40sw in limited class for years and that I did not want to use the factory crimp die on an IPSC gun. I'de really like to here from you guys as I really value you alls opinion. As always thanks for any help or advice...............I need it!!!!!!!!!

[EricW]

RLSMITH, on Aug 19 2003, 07:10 PM, said:

On the item of the Lee factory crimp die: I tried to order it from midway when i ordered the dies and the guy I spoke with said he'd been shooting 40sw in limited class for years and that I did not want to use the factory crimp die on an IPSC gun.

Did he explain *why*? I'm not sure why you wouldn't on an IPSC gun, but would on a Bullseye or Bianchi Cup gun. ....unless he thinks all IPSC guns have super-sloppy chambers by default.

[Flexmoney]

I won't shoot reloaded 40 without it going thru a Lee FDC.

First, lets forget the word "crimp". All we are looking to do with these straight walled auto-pistol rounds is to remove the belling from the powder station.

We aren't looking at the "crimp" to hold the bullet in the case. What holds the bullet in the brass is the huge (relatively speaking) surface area where the bullet and brass contact each other.

Your sizing die helps here quite a bit. The FDC makes sure all is well in the end.

And, as stated above, seating and crimping in different stations is the preferred method of IPSC shooters everywhere.

[Flexmoney]

Just noticed...are you shooting lead? That might make a difference in how the crimp should be adjusted. I'll let someone else speak to thenlead/crimp issue. My thought on crimp were with regards to jacketed bullets.

[RLSMITH]

I'm shooting Precision bullets. They are lead with a hard moly type coating. My question now is: if they are all gonna drop right in my Nowlin brl should I even worry about how much crimp they have, or if they fit in a guage? And should I even buy a Lee factory crimp die? I guess in a nut shell, what I'm wondering is should I start over setting up my press, or is all that we are looking for from a progresive loader is that all loaded rounds will cycle? I don't want to start over setting up if it's not worth the outcome, since I already have about 400rnds loaded this way. Keep in mind they will all drop in my Nowlin brl (which I will be shooting) but only about 3/4 of them drop in my schuman barreled SV (that I'm selling). Thanks again for everyones help!!!!!!!

[dajarrel]

Randy,
The problem may be with your Precision bullets. One of my shooting companions shoots them exclusively and has noted that they don't gauge as well as a jacketed bullet. A jacketed bullet should be .400 where it extends past the brass. However, a lead or moly coated bullet is usually at least .401" in order to seal the bore and prevent blowby which can cause severe leading.
You might try loading a jacketed bullet and see if it gauges properly. My friend kinda cheats by using a 10mm case gauge which has the same case diameter (as the .40) but is approx. 1/4 Inch longer. This allows the brass to go all the way into the gauge if it is properly sized.
I also experienced a similar problem when casting and loading with Lee's tumble lube dies without sizing. If the bullet diameter is much over .401, you will have problems.
FWIW
Dennis

[Flexmoney]

If your bullets aren't loaded correctly...then they aren't loaded correctly. Just cause you can "get by" is no reason to do so.

Get them right...100%

There is no reason not to.

[Larry White]

most .40s that shoot lead well are throated .403, get a reamer and throat your case guage to that. If I come across a rd that will not guite go into the guage I turn it over and reguage it backwards, this will tell you if its a resize problem or a crimp problem. My guage is throated long and a good rd falls completely into the guage. I have 4 guns and I want ammo that will run in all of them, pulling all those barrels is a pain, a guage set up this way cures that problem. There is a diffrence in guages, my dillon is tighter than the midway guage I have. If they won't guage they don't go to the range, and if they are not good enough for a match they are not good enough for practice, pullem or toss em. Good ammo is step 1 to good shooting. I load on a 650 that is nothing special, I use a lee u die to resize and dillons everwhere else and I don't have many rejects. Good setup and maintiance on the machine and a good case guage are the key. Larry

[dajarrel]

ikutx,
Not to be argumentitive, but I don't understand your comment about "most .40s that shoot lead well are throated .403...."
My STI with a Briley match barrel isn't throated to anything other than factory specs (which are usually for jacketed bullets) nor my S&W model 610 (although it is chambered in 10 mm) and I have absolutly no problem with my cast bullets. For a case in point, I believe, with few exceptions, that commercial lead for the .40 are sized at .401 which is where I size my cast loads. And I don't have a problem either with my barrel or case guage when sizing.

I do applaud your comment on ammunition. Good ammo is step 1 to good shooting. If you are having to clear your jam-o-matic every few rounds because of ammo, shooting just isn't fun and you won't be competitive.

just my humble opinion
Dennis

[RufDog]

lkytx, on Aug 22 2003, 10:01 PM, said:

most .40s that shoot lead well are throated .403, get a reamer and throat your case guage to that. If I come across a rd that will not guite go into the guage I turn it over and reguage it backwards, this will tell you if its a resize problem or a crimp problem. My guage is throated long and a good rd falls completely into the guage. I have 4 guns and I want ammo that will run in all of them, pulling all those barrels is a pain, a guage set up this way cures that problem. There is a diffrence in guages, my dillon is tighter than the midway guage I have. If they won't guage they don't go to the range, and if they are not good enough for a match they are not good enough for practice, pullem or toss em. Good ammo is step 1 to good shooting. I load on a 650 that is nothing special, I use a lee u die to resize and dillons everwhere else and I don't have many rejects. Good setup and maintiance on the machine and a good case guage are the key. Larry

Larry-

That was a great post. I had just started loading some lead for the first time and wondered what was going on as my cases gauged backwards but the bullet end stuck. Jacketed bullets were no problem. You answered my question precisely confirming my suspicions on crimp. (I'm using all Dillon dies on a 550)

[Bill J]

I also have an EGW 4 caliber case gage and my 40 S&W rounds won't fit all the way in whether I'm using Precisions or Montana Golds. I just figured it was cut to short because if I try to force a lead bullet in I can see where the gage marks the bullet. All of my rounds will fit with the primer end in even though the bullet end won't seat all the way. And with this gage it's only this way on 40, 9mm and 45 both work just fine.

Bill