[impala ss]

The Single Stack scores on the classifier calculator are based on L10 hit factors, I,m guessing that is because there was not enough SS data available last year. Does anyone know if USPSA was using L10 data last year, or if they are going to recalculate now that Single Stack is official? Frank

[steel1212]

I know people with classifiers back to 05 I think. I think USPSA has enough HHF for SS to change them, and they may have. I have to wonder though if the only reason there are only 3 GMs in SS in the 1st year since its been an official division is the lack of participation or just the HHFs are nuts.

[zhunter]

steel1212, on Dec 15 2008, 09:31 PM, said:

I know people with classifiers back to 05 I think. I think USPSA has enough HHF for SS to change them, and they may have. I have to wonder though if the only reason there are only 3 GMs in SS in the 1st year since its been an official division is the lack of participation or just the HHFs are nuts.

The HHF's are out of line to make the needed percentages. All SS percentages in my opinion are skewed. Reason being, the HHF's of L-10 have been calculated with the use of Wide-Body guns that are MUCH easier and somewhat faster to reload. As for comparing apples to apples, everything is fine, as everyone is being judged/classified by the same HHF's.

It makes NO difference in competition for classes in matches, but it has kept people from attaining the percentages they are truly shooting if the HHF's were based solely on Single Stack scoring

[Matt Cheely]

The top guys don't shoot it except for the SS Nats. Therefore, no classifiers.

[Flexmoney]

zhunter, on Dec 15 2008, 09:36 PM, said:

All SS percentages in my opinion are skewed. Reason being, the HHF's of L-10 have been calculated with the use of Wide-Body guns that are MUCH easier and somewhat faster to reload.

Once again, I don't see how it matters?

The HIGH Hit Factors will be set by the shooters that NAIL the reloads.

If Robbie, Todd and Dave set the HHF...are they going to do it with a flubbed reload? Nope.

[zhunter]

Flexmoney, on Dec 15 2008, 10:42 PM, said:

zhunter, on Dec 15 2008, 09:36 PM, said:

All SS percentages in my opinion are skewed. Reason being, the HHF's of L-10 have been calculated with the use of Wide-Body guns that are MUCH easier and somewhat faster to reload.

Once again, I don't see how it matters?

The HIGH Hit Factors will be set by the shooters that NAIL the reloads.

If Robbie, Todd and Dave set the HHF...are they going to do it with a flubbed reload? Nope.

Flex, yes, that is always your response, but let's not forget, those runs are normally over 100%.

The TRUE HHF's are skewed in Single Stack, but it does not matter as we are all classified by the SAME skewed HHF's. The only thing that makes a difference is that it holds members back from reaching the Class they should, as in IF the HHF's were based solely on Single Stack HHF's

Come on, if you don't see the logic in this, take a step back and think about it.

[j1b]

zhunter, on Dec 15 2008, 07:36 PM, said:

steel1212, on Dec 15 2008, 09:31 PM, said:

I know people with classifiers back to 05 I think. I think USPSA has enough HHF for SS to change them, and they may have. I have to wonder though if the only reason there are only 3 GMs in SS in the 1st year since its been an official division is the lack of participation or just the HHFs are nuts.

The HHF's are out of line to make the needed percentages. All SS percentages in my opinion are skewed. Reason being, the HHF's of L-10 have been calculated with the use of Wide-Body guns that are MUCH easier and somewhat faster to reload. As for comparing apples to apples, everything is fine, as everyone is being judged/classified by the same HHF's.

It makes NO difference in competition for classes in matches, but it has kept people from attaining the percentages they are truly shooting if the HHF's were based solely on Single Stack scoring

Not there with ya.

The advantage of a wide body, if there is indeed one, would be nominal at best. A first class reload is first class no matter the plane you fly.

I was once of your thought process, a long time ago. Limited was a blossoming division, there was no such thing as limited 10, production, or SS. There was open, and there was limited. I wanted a wide body, but Springfield didn't make one. And Rob was dead set on shooting a Springfield set up. So we competed with single stack guns against all the wide bodys. Rob won a year or two like that. I was fifth one year, and something like 8th the next. Fact is, it just doesn't matter as much as we'd like to think. Shoot well with what you got and things will work out just fine.

Jack

[steel1212]

In the end though Robbie is going to make all the SS HHF rediculas anyway so it doesn't really matter

I still think they should use SS HHF instead of L10s. Now if Robbie goes ape and all the HHF are nuts high then so be it but why use another division's HHF? You don't use Open's HHF for limited?

[boz1911]

zhunter, on Dec 15 2008, 08:46 PM, said:

Flexmoney, on Dec 15 2008, 10:42 PM, said:

zhunter, on Dec 15 2008, 09:36 PM, said:

All SS percentages in my opinion are skewed. Reason being, the HHF's of L-10 have been calculated with the use of Wide-Body guns that are MUCH easier and somewhat faster to reload.

Once again, I don't see how it matters?

The HIGH Hit Factors will be set by the shooters that NAIL the reloads.

If Robbie, Todd and Dave set the HHF...are they going to do it with a flubbed reload? Nope.

Flex, yes, that is always your response, but let's not forget, those runs are normally over 100%.

The TRUE HHF's are skewed in Single Stack, but it does not matter as we are all classified by the SAME skewed HHF's. The only thing that makes a difference is that it holds members back from reaching the Class they should, as in IF the HHF's were based solely on Single Stack HHF's

Come on, if you don't see the logic in this, take a step back and think about it.

Also need to remember holster and mag holder requirements are different. L-10 can use race holsters and position both the holster and magazines in a more advantagous position..

[zhunter]

boz1911, on Dec 16 2008, 05:48 AM, said:

Also need to remember holster and mag holder requirements are different. L-10 can use race holsters and position both the holster and magazines in a more advantagous position..

Thank you Boz!!!!

L-10 and SS are NOT the same

[ChuckS]

zhunter, on Dec 15 2008, 08:46 PM, said:

Flexmoney, on Dec 15 2008, 10:42 PM, said:

zhunter, on Dec 15 2008, 09:36 PM, said:

All SS percentages in my opinion are skewed. Reason being, the HHF's of L-10 have been calculated with the use of Wide-Body guns that are MUCH easier and somewhat faster to reload.

Once again, I don't see how it matters?

The HIGH Hit Factors will be set by the shooters that NAIL the reloads.

If Robbie, Todd and Dave set the HHF...are they going to do it with a flubbed reload? Nope.

Flex, yes, that is always your response, but let's not forget, those runs are normally over 100%.

Which should bring one to conclude that the HHFs are too low, no?


ETA: Actually, Matt hit right on the head. There aren't enough GM classifiers to set the HHF in SS yet. Using L-10 as a basis, while not perfect, is probably the best compromise. Until there is enough data to make valid HHFs, go practice

This post has been edited by ChuckS: 16 December 2008 - 07:49 AM

[38superman]

zhunter, on Dec 16 2008, 08:21 AM, said:

boz1911, on Dec 16 2008, 05:48 AM, said:

Also need to remember holster and mag holder requirements are different. L-10 can use race holsters and position both the holster and magazines in a more advantagous position..

Thank you Boz!!!!

L-10 and SS are NOT the same

+1

I have shot enough in the high cap divisions and in SS to say that no one is going to convince me that I can reload or draw a skinny gun just as fast as a wide body.

"I" being the operative word.

Maybe the elite shooters can do it.
Their reload alignment is going to be close to perfect everytime, so the smaller magwell won't matter much.

As for the great unwashed masses, I have bobbled reloads on my skinny gun that would have sailed into an big mouth magwell.

No one is going to convince me that I can draw from a SS legal holster placed behind my hip bone as fast as I can draw from a speed holster that's placed several inches forward.
I have timed myself through enough one shot drills to be able to see the difference.

When fractions of a second count, you take every advantage you can get.
This is why I shoot lim10 with a wide body 2011.
This is why I shoot L10 with same race holster rig as I use in Open and Limited.

SS is not L10.
I can only hope that in time the Classification system will be brought in line.

This post has been edited by 38superman: 16 December 2008 - 08:11 AM

[zhunter]

IF L-10 and Single Stack are so similar, why does everyone who is competitive in the Division use a wide body gun and most use race holsters????

Not gonna fly that L-10 and Single Stack are the same.

Maybe in the early days when I was one of the few fighting this battle, but the masses have now experienced it for themselves.

I will repeat, the only thing it effects are the individual shooters percentages and classifications, it has no effect on matches as we are all judged by the same skewed HHF's

This post has been edited by zhunter: 16 December 2008 - 08:08 AM

[Flexmoney]

Nobody is saying they are the same. That is the point that is being missed.

It not going to be the same for the "unwashed masses".


What is going to be the same is the High Hit Factors...if and when enough of them get shot for comparison.


The classifiers are NOT graded on a curve from the middle/average. They are set by the best possible...and everybody [else] gets a percentage of that.

The best shooters will nail the draw, nail the hits, and nail the reloads. It won't matter what gun they are shooting. Those will be the type runs that are the basis for the HHF's.

[bkeeler]

38superman, on Dec 16 2008, 07:47 AM, said:

zhunter, on Dec 16 2008, 08:21 AM, said:

boz1911, on Dec 16 2008, 05:48 AM, said:

Also need to remember holster and mag holder requirements are different. L-10 can use race holsters and position both the holster and magazines in a more advantagous position..

Thank you Boz!!!!

L-10 and SS are NOT the same

+1

I have shot enough in the high cap divisions and in SS to say that no one is going to convince me that I can reload or draw a skinny gun just as fast as a wide body.

"I" being the operative word.

Maybe the elite shooters can do it.
Their reload alignment is going to be close to perfect everytime, so the smaller magwell won't matter much.

As for the great unwashed masses, I have bobbled reloads on my skinny gun that would have sailed into an big mouth magwell.

No one is going to convince me that I can draw from a SS legal holster placed behind my hip bone as fast as I can draw from a speed holster that's placed several inches forward.
I have timed myself through enough one shot drills to be able to see the difference.

When fractions of a second count, you take every advantage you can get.
This is why I shoot lim10 with a wide body 2011.
This is why I shoot L10 with same race holster rig as I use in Open and Limited.

SS is not L10.
I can only hope that in time the Classification system will be brought in line.

I made A Class in L-10 with a skinny gun and Blade-tech holster and now I am shooting a wide body 2011 in Limited With a DOH Blade-Tech holster and can't seem to get out of B class.

Just my .02

BK

[Nik Habicht]

zhunter, on Dec 15 2008, 10:46 PM, said:

Flex, yes, that is always your response, but let's not forget, those runs are normally over 100%.

Dude, you do realize that's impossible legally, right? Since HHF are by definition equal to a 100% score.....

[Nik Habicht]

38superman, on Dec 16 2008, 09:47 AM, said:

I have shot enough in the high cap divisions and in SS to say that no one is going to convince me that I can reload or draw a skinny gun just as fast as a wide body.

No one is going to convince me that I can draw from a SS legal holster placed behind my hip bone as fast as I can draw from a speed holster that's placed several inches forward.
I have timed myself through enough one shot drills to be able to see the difference.

You do realize that the largest obstacle in being better with SS than L10 gear is in your head, right? And that it's possible to change that --- if you choose to.....

[38superman]

You are absolutely right Flex and I agree.

The HHF will be set by the top shooters.
When there are enought GM classifers on file, they probably won't vary much from L10

I am not missing the point. I get it.
No one is graded on a curve.

That said, I'm simply looking forward to the day when the SS division gets it's own HHF's shot with actual SS guns.

I guess I'm just a purist.

Tls

This post has been edited by 38superman: 16 December 2008 - 09:42 AM

[steel1212]

Nik Habicht, on Dec 16 2008, 11:34 AM, said:

zhunter, on Dec 15 2008, 10:46 PM, said:

Flex, yes, that is always your response, but let's not forget, those runs are normally over 100%.

Dude, you do realize that's impossible legally, right? Since HHF are by definition equal to a 100% score.....

He isn't say that they are entered as over 100% just that if the HHF is set at X the top dogs a lot of the time will put up a 110% of that HHF until it gets changed......I think

Q/A time.

Does the HHF have to be set by a GM? I mean if a bunch of us none GMs run HFs higher than what it is will they not change it because we aren't GMs?

We do agree that they aren't the same I think.

What Flex is saying is right BUT even so if that is the case then give us those HHF not L10s.

BK, shoot your skinny gun in Limited for a while...and see what the classifiers say. Your match scores might not be that great but, as Flex says, pick a gun and shoot it. Your just used to shooting the SS because you have put the time in with it.

[Matt Cheely]

HHF is an average of the top 10 scores. Or so we're told... Doesn't matter who shoots them.

[zhunter]

Nik Habicht, on Dec 16 2008, 11:34 AM, said:

zhunter, on Dec 15 2008, 10:46 PM, said:

Flex, yes, that is always your response, but let's not forget, those runs are normally over 100%.

Dude, you do realize that's impossible legally, right? Since HHF are by definition equal to a 100% score.....

Nik

I have witnessed Dirtypool40 shoot several classifiers OVER 100%, so yes, the GM's do shoot over 100% on often I would think. So, when a HHF is written in stone, every time a shooter gets a higher HF in a classifier, he gets 100%, but the actual percentage of the HHF CAN BE over 100%

Nik Habicht, on Dec 16 2008, 11:37 AM, said:

38superman, on Dec 16 2008, 09:47 AM, said:

I have shot enough in the high cap divisions and in SS to say that no one is going to convince me that I can reload or draw a skinny gun just as fast as a wide body.

No one is going to convince me that I can draw from a SS legal holster placed behind my hip bone as fast as I can draw from a speed holster that's placed several inches forward.
I have timed myself through enough one shot drills to be able to see the difference.

You do realize that the largest obstacle in being better with SS than L10 gear is in your head, right? And that it's possible to change that --- if you choose to.....

Nik

With all due respect, a shooter is going to be faster out of a holster that is in a more forward position, and he is going to be faster grabbing magazines that are in a more ergonomic position. It is just simple to see that the hands have a shorter distance to travel. Now it is only fractions of seconds, but that is what our sport is made up of.

It is amazing to me that this argument/discussion is taking place. IF the holster placement and mag pouch placement is not a big deal, then lets see Open and Limited moved to the same position as SS. OH, now I can see the masses coming with the tar and feathers!!!! OPEN and Limited shooters have figured out the best/fastest way to get that first shot off, and the best and fastest way to do a reload, and neither are behind the hipbone. Sorry, that line of thinking does not work here.

NEXT

[Matt Cheely]

zhunter, on Dec 16 2008, 02:57 PM, said:

With all due respect, a shooter is going to be faster out of a holster that is in a more forward position, and he is going to be faster grabbing magazines that are in a more ergonomic position.

As long as I'm going for the mag in pouch #1, it's no slower if the mag is at my side. And my Limited/Open holster position is the same as my SS rig, I just use a different holster, it's a tenth slower.

[zhunter]

Matt Cheely, on Dec 16 2008, 03:01 PM, said:

zhunter, on Dec 16 2008, 02:57 PM, said:

With all due respect, a shooter is going to be faster out of a holster that is in a more forward position, and he is going to be faster grabbing magazines that are in a more ergonomic position.

As long as I'm going for the mag in pouch #1, it's no slower if the mag is at my side. And my Limited/Open holster position is the same as my SS rig, I just use a different holster, it's a tenth slower.

Yep, a tenth here, and tenth there and there you have it, NOT the same.

I do think that the vertical SS magazines are not as quick to grab as a canted wide body mag. And as Matt indicated, the #2 SS reload is a lot different.

SS and L-10 are Apples and Oranges

This post has been edited by zhunter: 16 December 2008 - 01:05 PM

[HuskySig]

As someone looking in from the outside, I don't shoot L-10 or SS, is the art and skill of the SS reload being done away with with the development of the Techwell? It seems like you can make a SS magazine chute nearly as large of a target as a double stack magazine well.

As for the position of magazines and holster differences between L-10 and SS. Seems like Dave Sevigny did pretty well at L-10 Nationals using Production equipment. Aside from probably switching to a Glock 35, his belt setup was identical to how it was setup for Production.

[kgunz11]

So Z, what you are saying is if SS used it's own HHF, our classifier scores might be a higher percentage and an A class shooter might in essence be a Master class shooter if he was compared to the other HHF scores of people shooting in SS?

How much of a difference is there in the HHF they are currently using and what has been shot by a GM in SS? Yeah, David, Phil, TGO, TJ and the others might be a little slower with a SS rig than with a hi-cap, but is it enough to really make a difference or is your argument based on principal?