[JThompson]

On Paper.... How many times have you designed, or been handed a stage to build and had to completely revamp it before it was ready to shoot. Of all the times I had something on paper, there are only a handful of times I build the stage and it actually looked like what I had envisioned on paper. This is esp. true of high round count stages in confined spaces... indoor ranges are a bear to design for.

I want the best designers actually building the stages for a match. Chances are there are going to be many changes needed and I want the best person for the job to keep within the spirit and shoot-abilty of the stage. I think the people that build the stages are really co designers of the stages. I have handed off my designs to the guys to build, and for whatever reason they were not able to build it as written. I came over to see how they were doing and there was some form of morph between my concept and the reality of building that stage with space and placement usually dictating the changes...

I guess what I'm saying is design well, but if you have to turn it over to another to build, choose wisely and don't micro manage the builder if you trust them. They will have run into all these issues you were not able to invasion and have corrected them. You come along and think.... wtf is this? lol Cut them some slack on the build...it often does not go as designed... In the end, you can end up with a stage, as good, or better than what you originally envisioned.

Nobody likes to be micro managed!!

This post has been edited by JThompson: 10 December 2008 - 12:47 AM

[Flexmoney]

Nice post. (Sounds like you experienced it, directly?)

[HighVelocity]

I usually have to make adjustments to account for shoot throughs, berm hieght, etc. I don't take it personally. What I put on paper just doesn't always jive with the range conditions.

[Bigpops]

posted :0154? Wow, and I thought I had things on my mind!

Good post!

[JThompson]

Flexmoney, on Dec 10 2008, 06:58 AM, said:

Nice post. (Sounds like you experienced it, directly?)

Yes. I've been on both sides of that fence, though nothing recent. It's something that has been rattling around in the recesses for some time.

[JThompson]

Bigpops, on Dec 10 2008, 11:10 AM, said:

posted :0154? Wow, and I thought I had things on my mind!

Good post!

I don't sleep much BP.

[kevin c]

The best stages I've built start with an idea. The idea can morph as is made necessary by range/prop/safety constraints.

The worst stages I've built started with a detailed diagram. I'd sometimes have too much invested in that carefully laid out plan to be willing to give it up.

Got some new guys at my club who're good shooters, good at building props, and enthusiastic volunteer stage designers. Their stages are fun and challenging, but it's taken some time for them to see that tweaks and occasionally large modifications are sometimes needed to whatever's been designed before setup day.

Notes to self:

New blood should always be welcomed.

New blood needs nurturing, not control.

Veteran built stages may be safe and challenging, but, after 15 years, often have a certain "sameness", coming from the same source.

Yes, it will often be very different, but that can be a very good thing.

[VegasOPM]

We have started having a different person design our "house stage" (we have a permanent house on the range) every match. It is fun to see the different styles. We also reserve the right to mock the designer (gently) if the stage is too weird.

I like seeing different designers and builders designing and setting the stages for a single match. We have accuracy shooters, hosers, movement jedis and everything else in our club. I love seeing 5 different stages that highlight the different specializations.

[bfwally]

I agree about setting up indoor stages. Depending on the bays, things get awfully cramped, awfully fast, and you have to worry about pass-throughs hitting equipment or no-shoots, or the ceilings, or the floors, or the walls....

I have set up for our weekly indoor IDPA matches several times, and I don't think more than one or two of my stage designs survived contact with the enemy (the enemy being the bay geometry).

[matt2ace]

My home club is limited to forward shooting only, no berms for side impacts. We have space to allow for perhaps 90 degree transitions on wider/longer stages, but much of the shooting is limited to perpendicular to the 180 line (aka: straight down range). This leads to very creative and extensive use of walls and vision barriers to create challenging stages. I came to this club (DCPA) with experience designing stages at club with 2 berm shooting pits. I considered myself a fairly experience stage designer having designed stages for monthly and a few tournament level matches.

The learning curve was pretty steep at DCPA. I would design stages, only to be humbled by the limitations of range, ending up with much different results that I envisioned. Fortunately had help and guidence from a very experienced stage designers from DCPA who took the time to show me what they had learned about how to use the limited layout of the range to design good stages. I have since become very proficient at stage design within the severe limitation of the range. The main lesson I learned relative to stage design versus setup is to not get too tied up in making a stage exactly like the initial design. I now think more about the intent of my stage design and setup it to achieve those general goals. I stopped worrying about the exact placement of a target or the fact that a mover has to be closer than I wanted etc., etc. If the stage was fun and challenging to shoot.....I achieved my goal.

I strongly believe in encouraging shooters to try stage design and I believe in mentoring anyone who is interested. You get a whole new prespective on shooting when you actually have to 'make it up' and then step it up. Any of us who design stages regularly do appreciate the compliments we get when a stage comes out good.

On the other hand, if you don't like the stage design, mine or others, try doing it yourself and see just how challenging it can be at times. I always appreciate constructive comments, input, guidence on a stage design. I am always willing to listen and learn.

.......just don't whine about a stage if your not willing to try and do it yourself!

This post has been edited by matt2ace: 13 December 2008 - 05:50 PM

[p2000lefty]

I feel for you Matt2. I also design for a rifle berm. It is tricky to design interesting stages without a bay situation. I have often thought about putting some of my designs up on this board, but, I thought that I would get run out of town. It is tricky to design with no shoot throughs in your stage and the two stages next to you. I have learned that you have to let the builder use their artistic license and not be offended when the intent changes.

[matt2ace]

p2000lefty, on Dec 14 2008, 12:47 AM, said:

I feel for you Matt2. I also design for a rifle berm. It is tricky to design interesting stages without a bay situation. I have often thought about putting some of my designs up on this board, but, I thought that I would get run out of town. It is tricky to design with no shoot throughs in your stage and the two stages next to you. I have learned that you have to let the builder use their artistic license and not be offended when the intent changes.

+1

We have 3 ranges at DCPA with our widest being a full fledge bullseye pit with permanent turning target stands at 25 yards leaving us with another 25 yards of space to the berm. In addition, there is a cement wall separating range 1 from range 2 making shooting angles even more difficult to manage. We put 2 stages on each range, usually a longer course and speed shoot or classifier.

Shoot-throughs are a major driver of stage redesign. It is very hard to see them on paper, even with some of the stage design programs that look for shoot-throughs when you place targets.

Overall, we end up with some great stages. However, new stage designers can really get surprised by the limitations of the club layout. I miss real shooting pits and really appreciate them when I shoot at other clubs.

This post has been edited by matt2ace: 17 December 2008 - 07:13 AM

[joecichlid]

JThompson, I set up a ton of indoor matches and thanks to a program called StageCAD (can be had for free at StageCAD.com). The program allows me to set up walls, targets, steel and all the goodies then tweek it on paper before I head to the range. It even has a feature that allows you to double click on the targets as if shooting and show the path of your bullets. This lets you double check for shoot through issues before even putting your first target on the sticks.
As for setting up indoors we have an agreement with our host range that have kindly allowed us to run wires down the length of the range bays between the overhead baffles. On these wires we hang tarps for walls that we get from Cummins Tools for about $2 each (5x7 tarps). Using clothes pins to clip the tarps up and barrles that we staple the tarps to down below (mostly to keep people from shortcutting the corners and moving the walls) we have very few problems. On all corners where someone might be shooting close to the tarps we use four or five clothes pins at the top and rarely see them pulled down by muzzle blast. To run tarp walls across the range we staple 1x2 wood strips that are about 8 foot long across the wires. The tarps are stapled at the top to the wood.
The wire is cheap at Home Depot, clothes pins and tarps are pretty cheap at Cummins Tools. You just need to drill the holes in the baffles for the wire. To help things out even more we space the wires three feet apart which happens to fit in great with StageCAD as it has a setting to allow for a 3x3 grid on the stage. So at most I have to do a little tweaking on the stage but mostly no more than a few inches for the targets.

This clip shows how the walls can be set up.

Click here to view video on YouTube.


An overhead view of a stage drawn up on StageCAD




An oblique view of a stage drawn up on StageCAD. The nice thing is that you can fly around overhead of the stage and view it from ever angle.




Joe W.

This post has been edited by joecichlid: 17 December 2008 - 05:51 PM