[rider82]

I have decided that I need to work on transitions. At the end of this year I started to work some on snapping my eyes. I'm trying to evaluate exactly what I'm doing, and what I SHOULD be doing. As you transition between targets, I assume you should be maintaing your index(everything from the waist up). If I am trying to isolate what my lower body is doing, should I be looking at this as more of a push(with my left hip if I am shooting left to right), or a turning motion coming from my hips, knee, and ankles. I occasionally feel myself pulling(from my right side while shooting left to right for instance), and when doing this feel it is more difficult to brake at the target. I'm trying to get a clearer idea of how to "think" about this so I can develope some muscle memory.

[Flexmoney]

Don't worry much about "should".

You are already showing more awareness than most, don't let "should" get in the way.

Keep experiencing and see where it takes you.

[Duane Thomas]

Personally, I like to think of it as always keeping my hips square to the target. Thus all the movement happens from the waist down. So, to answer the question, I'd say that yes, it should ideally all happen in the legs, knees, and ankles. Of course YMMV.

[j1b]

You should try everything. In order to find the best path you must kick all the tires right?

For me, I've played with this 100 different ways. Like Duane mentions, I primarily like to use my legs and knees to index. Seems more stable.

That said, I have recently become aware that regardless there is upper body movement. Within this I've worked on two techniques, one is where I move the gun within the triangle that is my arms, gun and shoulders. So my arms would move in general more than my shoulders. That technique has not worked that great. What I've really enjoyed is keeping that triangle fairly static, more rigid, and making the transition with my shoulders. From a vision perspective this has been much better - and much more consistent.

I'm not good at articulating the difference between the two so I hope that makes sense.

Jack

[j1b]

Flexmoney, on Nov 24 2008, 05:28 PM, said:

Keep experiencing and see where it takes you.

I like this statement. I heard a quote the other day - In the same way that a picture is worth a thousand words, an experience is worth a thousand pictures.

Try everything. Experience everything. You'll be the better shooter because of it.

Jack

[Flexmoney]

The hip bones move more than I ever thought they did...and I preach pretty hard on transitioning with/through the legs.


This became especially apparent to me after some recent lower back troubles.

[Flexmoney]

j1b, on Nov 24 2008, 10:27 PM, said:

Flexmoney, on Nov 24 2008, 05:28 PM, said:

Keep experiencing and see where it takes you.

I like this statement. I heard a quote the other day - In the same way that a picture is worth a thousand words, an experience is worth a thousand pictures.

Try everything. Experience everything. You'll be the better shooter because of it.

Jack

I think that is where it's truly "at".

When we can quiet the talking to ourselves about what is the right and wrong way...we can just experience what actually is happening.


It's pretty cool when we get our head out of the way.

[rider82]

Thanks for the responses. Flex, it's a little cold here now, guess I'll have to try this in the basement.

[Jake Di Vita]

Quote

it's a little cold here now

Practical shooting.

[Pat Harrison]

A couple of things. I agree totally with Jack and Flex. Be aware however that some transitions require more. You may have to move your feet slightly (or more) depending on the distance, you may want to unlock your arms to make the swing, or the targets may be in a position where you have to do some thing outside of your normal index, and it might require breaking your wrist to make the shots. The main thing is the eyes lead the gun and your body will figure out how to make the gun get there.
Something else to pay attention to is where your body strength is. Pay attention to what muscles you are using to transition. Some shooters have extremely strong legs and can use them almost entirely to rotate the body. Others will use more of the hips and obliques. Get some light weights, I have two 15lb dumbells, and hold one in your shooting stance, then simulate making 90 degree transitions. Start light and work up, but you'll find out what muscles are being used. Then you can use this exercise to build strength in the muscles you want to use.

[Silver_Surfer]

Agree with Pat on "The Eyes lead the gun and your body will figure out how to get there." This works on both Stand and Shoots and Field courses. Your gun indexes on what the eyes locks on.

[JThompson]

Pat Harrison, on Nov 25 2008, 10:31 AM, said:

A couple of things. I agree totally with Jack and Flex. Be aware however that some transitions require more. You may have to move your feet slightly (or more) depending on the distance, you may want to unlock your arms to make the swing, or the targets may be in a position where you have to do some thing outside of your normal index, and it might require breaking your wrist to make the shots. The main thing is the eyes lead the gun and your body will figure out how to make the gun get there.
Something else to pay attention to is where your body strength is. Pay attention to what muscles you are using to transition. Some shooters have extremely strong legs and can use them almost entirely to rotate the body. Others will use more of the hips and obliques. Get some light weights, I have two 15lb dumbells, and hold one in your shooting stance, then simulate making 90 degree transitions. Start light and work up, but you'll find out what muscles are being used. Then you can use this exercise to build strength in the muscles you want to use.

Good add Pat.

[Dan Burwell]

Pat Harrison, on Nov 25 2008, 11:31 AM, said:

Get some light weights, I have two 15lb dumbells, and hold one in your shooting stance, then simulate making 90 degree transitions. Start light and work up, but you'll find out what muscles are being used. Then you can use this exercise to build strength in the muscles you want to use.

I made this a part of my normal workout, along with some of the grip exercises. Not sure how much it helps but it certainly isn't hurting anything.

[Pat Harrison]

You can also use the Wii Fit platform to see how your balance shifts while transitioning.

[XRe]

Pat Harrison, on Nov 25 2008, 10:31 AM, said:

Be aware however that some transitions require more. You may have to move your feet slightly (or more) depending on the distance, you may want to unlock your arms to make the swing, or the targets may be in a position where you have to do some thing outside of your normal index, and it might require breaking your wrist to make the shots.

I would agree that sometimes you may experience these things - but would caution against going around looking for excuses to disrupt your normal index (aka "break the triangle"). I don't think you're saying that, Pat - but sometimes folks read too much into these things In the vast majority of situations, proper setup prevents you from needing to move feet, as well. That said, on extremely wide indexes (165+ degrees), I have found that, on a timer, I'm faster if I pull the gun in as I index, and push back out onto the target (same motion as the last part of the draw) - I also tend to get better hits. That's the only situation where I will purposefully identify this sort of thing.

I will, however, observe myself doing interesting things in weird courses of fire... One that comes to mind is that course of fire Porter had in the '07 DTC, with four groups of 4 targets that you had to shoot around the left side of a stack of barrels. The fault lines were set so that you didn't have a direct shot into the A-zone on the inside two targets in two of the arrays without being real off balance, but you were, like, 1 yard away... and most of us observed that, at high speed, with a desire to shoot As, our wrists would break some to the right on those targets, putting us square in the A-zone. It happened quickly, and subconsciously, and was not actually planned, but... I wouldn't recommend planning on that, though

Quote

The main thing is the eyes lead the gun and your body will figure out how to make the gun get there.

Yes... to a point I have seen some folks get into doing some real goofy things (like indexing with their arms) by following this premise The body and sub-conscious can be almost too creative some times

Quote

Get some light weights, I have two 15lb dumbells, and hold one in your shooting stance, then simulate making 90 degree transitions. Start light and work up, but you'll find out what muscles are being used. Then you can use this exercise to build strength in the muscles you want to use.

Another one that works good is using a medicine ball to do similar things - you can throw the ball against a wall, etc. 6# ball - face at 90 degrees to the wall, rotate away from the wall, and then towards it, throwing the ball against the wall, and then catch it. Repeat 20x, then do the other side. If you do it correctly, and put your legs and hips into it, its the same motion as the "legs only transition". Lots of cool med ball stuff to work hips, upper leg power, and core. Check out http://medicineballs.com - good product, good exercises... low impact, and such. Partner stuff w/ a med-ball is cool, too.

[Pat Harrison]

No, I'm a proponent of doing the same thing, the same way, every time. I just didn't want to preclude the idea that there aren't other possiblities out there under strange circumstances. I have seen shooters that were so rigid in their index, that they wouldn't be able to hit the targets you describe...ever..without falling over. Kinda like die hard Weaver fans

[XRe]

Pat Harrison, on Nov 25 2008, 08:15 PM, said:

I have seen shooters that were so rigid in their index, that they wouldn't be able to hit the targets you describe...ever..without falling over. Kinda like die hard Weaver fans

I've seen that happen, too... Hell, I've basically been guilty of it, even

[GmanCdp]

if it's a static stage, i like to setup to wind or unwind,depending on target location,squared with the hips,then unwind to the other targets...i've tryed this alot with a timer and using 3 targets..times were faster unwinding rather then just twisting the shoulders or the hips..

[Catfish]

I started shooting the dot at the local steel matches and then forced my eyes to snap from steel to steel and then bring the dot to where I wanted to shoot. I think it's really been paying off...

And my steel gun is a cheapo Ruger MkIII with a low $$ tasco scope on it and it works perfectly in that application. On ammo savings alone it's paid for itself!

[HSMITH]

I posed a question here once about transitions, Jake provided some great insight into what happens in your FEET. Where the weight is in your feet will determine how hard you can start moving and how hard you can stop moving. I think I was on the right track and he helped quantify it, I have gone with it since and have made good progress. I remember it being a good discussion, might be worth a search....

[JThompson]

HSMITH, on Nov 26 2008, 05:31 PM, said:

I posed a question here once about transitions, Jake provided some great insight into what happens in your FEET. Where the weight is in your feet will determine how hard you can start moving and how hard you can stop moving. I think I was on the right track and he helped quantify it, I have gone with it since and have made good progress. I remember it being a good discussion, might be worth a search....

http://www.brianenos...;hl=Transitions

[rider82]

This is exactly the type of breakdown I was looking for. I now have some reference points to think about, and try to "feel" when practicing. Thanks.

[HSMITH]

Thanks Jim, that is the one. Made a big difference for me. It is sort of 'technical' but for the process oriented thinkers it could be really helpful.