[DonT]

Please go easy on me. There's a reason I've never posted in this forum. The mental part of this game has never been one of my strong suits.

It's the night before a local match. I just finished a dryfire practice and got all my gear ready and I'm thinking about all the things I can do to get better times without sacrificing accuracy. I'm thinking about splits and transitions (both of which I need improvement) and how transitions usually cost more time than splits. I recall when I started that one of the better shooters told me I should try to keep my splits and transitions close to the same time. As I improved, and was able to do this, the same shooter told me, that's not always the case. You don't want to develop a cadence that causes you to take a shot before you're ready and you don't want it to slow you down on a shot that could have been taken faster. I understand what he's saying. Each shot is the shot at the moment.

So since we think of transitions typically taking more time than splits, are we mentally holding ourselves back or slowing ourselves down by thinking this way. What if we forget about transitions and look at all as splits. If you have ever seen a Blake Miguez video, the first thing you notice is that he never stops shooting. If there is an array of targets in front of him, try to figure out what was a transition and what was a split. The only transitions I've seen for him is when he has to move (far).

Anyway, I think I'll try this tomorrow. I'll shoot like Blake , only much, much slower. I'll tell myself, when the buzzer goes off don't stop shooting until you're finished. No transitions, only splits, and only as fast as I can call my shots. Our local matches are only practice anyway. Let's see what happens.

[Jman]

Yeah. I'd like to let go too. My goal for '09 is to balance deliberate shooting and impulsive shooting...somehow.


Jim

[HSMITH]

I think shooting that way can be a good training tool but I think it is VERY dangerous to do very often. I say that because I have done it. I set a cadence at about .25 and shot EVERYTHING at 25's. Knowing the gun is going to shoot at 25 your body will do whatever it has to do to get the gun to the next target in time. It really helped speed up my transitions, BUT my accuracy wasn't what it should have been and I didn't go back to shooting the front sight again soon enough. It didn't take long either and it was a habit that was hard to break. I can still slip into it. I would suggest trying it on a 2-5 target array in practice and do it just enough to get the transition speed up, then stop. I have never practiced so I shot a couple whole matches that way and it became ingrained a lot faster than I thought it would.

[Matt Cheely]

Forget transitions and splits. Those are just words used to describe the time something takes.

Call you shots. The time depends on how fast you see the sights for the next shot. That's all it is.

This post has been edited by Matt Cheely: 09 November 2008 - 10:09 AM

[Flexmoney]

+1

Don't go in with a pre-determined expectation of what you are supposed to do. That is limiting.

Open up your vision and senses and allow them to let you learn and perform.

[bkeeler]

Matt Cheely, on Nov 9 2008, 11:09 AM, said:

Forget transitions and splits. Those are just words used to describe the time something takes.

Call you shots. The time depends on how fast you see the sights for the next shot. That's all it is.

+1

Some days I see faster than others.

BK

[DonT]

Yep, you guy's are right again as ususal. No matter what gimmick I try to come up with, it always goes back to, "you can't shoot any faster than you can see" and "call your shots".

I didn't get to try anything new today anyway. The stages we had required that I focus on too many other things to try anything new. The stages required that I see and call each shot. What a surprise.

Thanks for the feedback...always appreciated

[benos]

Matt Cheely, on Nov 9 2008, 10:09 AM, said:

Forget transitions and splits. Those are just words used to describe the time something takes.

Call you shots. The time depends on how fast you see the sights for the next shot. That's all it is.

Yes!

Arbitrary divisions such as split or transition, slow or fast, all disappear when you see everything.
be

[Silver_Surfer]

benos, on Nov 24 2008, 03:53 PM, said:

Matt Cheely, on Nov 9 2008, 10:09 AM, said:

Forget transitions and splits. Those are just words used to describe the time something takes.

Call you shots. The time depends on how fast you see the sights for the next shot. That's all it is.

Yes!

Arbitrary divisions such as split or transition, slow or fast, all disappear when you see everything.
be

So how do you guys gauge a stage? I look over a stage and predetermine on how long I should take to shoot this or that stage. Everyone has a plan and goes over it in their mind before shooting a stage.

This post has been edited by Silver_Surfer: 26 November 2008 - 01:03 AM

[benos]

Quote

So how do you guys gauge a stage? I look over a stage and predetermine on how long I should take to shoot this or that stage.

I never thought or cared about how long it would take me, or how long I should take, to shoot a stage.

Instead I would visualize just what I needed to see to shoot every target in the stage. However long it took me to do what I'd visualized - I'd learn that when I finished the stage.
be

[Duane Thomas]

What a cool way to look at it.

[Sam]

Quote

However long it took me to do what I'd visualized - I'd learn that when I finished the stage.

be


Yeah! If we had a MBA of the day award, that one would get my vote.






(Most Bitchin' Attitude)

[Silver_Surfer]

benos, on Dec 4 2008, 02:53 PM, said:

Quote

So how do you guys gauge a stage? I look over a stage and predetermine on how long I should take to shoot this or that stage.

I never thought or cared about how long it would take me, or how long I should take, to shoot a stage.

Instead I would visualize just what I needed to see to shoot every target in the stage. However long it took me to do what I'd visualized - I'd learn that when I finished the stage.
be

Call me Murphy but how do you stay on track(Keep from going into HOSE mode) after you clear a jam, slide lock or your mag falls out? Sorry to get off topic!

This post has been edited by Silver_Surfer: 04 December 2008 - 09:56 PM

[Flexmoney]

What's the benefit of HOSE mode?

How would that be helpful? (Actually, in USPSA/IPSC it is especially hurtful. Your hit factor is your points divided by your time. So, the longer the time...like when there is a gun jam...the more important points become, because the hit factor will be lower.)


If HOSE mode was the most efficient manner to get the highest hit factor that you were capable of achieving that day...then you'd already be in it, I'd think?

But, it is not. We have learned that through experience and trust. And, we've replaced that lost feeling of hoser'ness with a focus on seeing...which leads to knowing.

See all that you need to see to make each shot. No more. No less.

[No Evil]

Silver_Surfer, on Dec 4 2008, 11:53 PM, said:

Call me Murphy but how do you stay on track(Keep from going into HOSE mode) after you clear a jam, slide lock or your mag falls out? Sorry to get off topic!

Your eyes keep you on track, you see a 15 yard partial you know that the sight needs to stop.

I like the idea of thinking what you will see instead of a cadence, excellent!

[Silver_Surfer]

^I def. know that BUT BUT BUT after Shit happens........I try to keep on the orginal track Cant seem to change my mind track HELP!

[Flexmoney]

Your on the wrong track altogether.

You are not alone.


Many are of the mindset that there is conflict between speed and accuracy. They pit the two against each other. The logic(?) there is that they can go fast OR slowdown (to get their hits).

That is a speed focus (fast or slow).

That needs replaced be a better mindset.

Vision is that mindset. Feedback...awareness...is that mindset.

[boz1911]

Yeah but after a malfunction, gun or mental, it feels so good to hose away!!

It never works though!!

[Flexmoney]

In poker...that would be a player on TILT.

[Duane Thomas]

I hate to be the sole dissenting voice here - especially in a crowd with this skill/experience level - but I have found shooting as fast as possible while turning up your vision to be a great technique for cutting down on transition time. I mean, really, when you know your next shot is coming in .20 second whether you're on target or not, that tends to get you off your ass about getting your gun over to the next A-zone. With practice you find the gun is there and stabilized before you can fire the next shot anyway - granted we're talking a fairly short transition - so why not shoot as fast as possible?

[bkeeler]

Duane Thomas, on Dec 5 2008, 01:46 PM, said:

I hate to be the sole dissenting voice here - especially in a crowd with this skill/experience level - but I have found shooting as fast as possible while turning up your vision to be a great technique for cutting down on transition time. I mean, really, when you know your next shot is coming in .20 second whether you're on target or not, that tends to get you off your ass about getting your gun over to the next A-zone. With practice you find the gun is there and stabilized before you can fire the next shot anyway - granted we're talking a fairly short transition - so why not shoot as fast as possible?

I think doing this in practice is good to raise your current natural speed. In a match I would just shoot Alphas at my current natural speed.( I do this most of the time I need to do it all the time)

BK

[DonT]

I was kinda hoping this thread would die but other than the OP's post, it's turned out pretty interesting

I feel I am at a transition in my shooting. I have tried every wrong thing there is to try since starting this game and have actually learned alot about what not to do and what works and what doesn't. The eye opening thing that I have learned is you have to shoot for A's and call your shots. I credit the following thread for driving this into my head.

http://www.brianenos...showtopic=65740

Now that I have come to this realization (btw, I will settle for a C or D without a makeup shot if I feel I'm having a good run ), I need to pick up the pace. I've never stopped trying to go faster, I just don't fire until I think I'm on the A zone. I say think because for example shooting on the move. Still learning. I shoot only as fast as I can see but haul ass on everything else (well, as fast as a 49yr old ass will haul). I need to find places to pick up time. My draws are ok. I'm not scared to have to do a standing reload. I've been told my stage breakdown sucks but I'm breaking them down for my abilities and I just like trying different things to see what's faster or not. I don't think I can move any faster than I already do so that only leaves a few more areas to pick up speed.

Seeing faster...I just started practicing snapping my eyes to the next target.
Splits and transitions...Where I need the most work.
Mental awareness...Guess I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. Keep making stupid mistakes that cost me time.

I hope to be able to get in some live fire practice soon to work on picking up my speed on splits and transitions. I just haven't figured out yet how it's possible for some of the shooters I see to take two shots with one sight picture when I have to aim both shots . No, seriously is it that they have the timing of their gun down and know exactly when to pull of the .15 shot? Are their seeing skills so advanced that they are seeing the dot/sight on the second shot at .15?

Lastly, I want to say thanks to you guys for your endless patience. Since I've been here I've seen y'all answering the same questions over and over everytime a newbie asks. I'm sure it gets old but thanks for sharing your knowledge . It will eventually sink in.

[Duane Thomas]

Quote

I just haven't figured out yet how it's possible for some of the shooters I see to take two shots with one sight picture when I have to aim both shots . No, seriously is it that they have the timing of their gun down and know exactly when to pull of the .15 shot? Are their seeing skills so advanced that they are seeing the dot/sight on the second shot at .15?

Yes.

Actually, human eyesight works ever so much faster than that. I invite you to perform the following test:

If you have a camera that has a flash unit, take the camera (or just the flash) into a darkened room. Have a friend stand in front of you and hold up any number of fingers. Then hit the flash. I guanantee you'll be able to see how many fingers are being held up.

According to the owner's manual on my Sunpac 383, its strobe of light lasts 1/2,000th (yes, I said one/TWO-THOUSANDTHS) of a second.

Also, consider this:

In order to give the impression of continuous motion when running a film, the film has to run at a speed of 24 frames per second. Otherwise the imagery will look jerky as the eye picks up a series of individual images, one after the other, instead of receiving an impression of smooth motion. So that tells us the human eye could actually pick up at least 24 individual sight pictures per second if it really needed to. The mere six sight pictures per second represented by a .15 split is no challenge at all to the human eye's and mind's capabilities.

For me, the limiting factor in shooting fast is not my eyesight, but the actual motor skills necessary to make the gun fire. I haven't yet gotten to the point that I can regularly drive my splits lower than .19 or .20. But at those speeds, as long as I've got the gun tracking consistently, seeing the sights is easy. Just watch the little bouncing front sight, out there doing its thing, up and down like a little bouncy ball.... Ooooooh, pretty.

[Sam]

Duane, thanks for that post man!

Only the people who accept the facts you've sited as true, will be able to press on past the illusion that "the hand is quicker than the eye".

Just think where that little bit of diversion originated. Street magicians?


Seeing with the eyes, and other types of discernement, are a life long study.

[Nik Habicht]

After years of working on this shot calling thing, I've noticed that I'm never able to shoot faster than I can see ---- but I'm certainly capable of noticing that my attention wavered from seeing what I needed to see when i triggered a particular shot. One of the added beauties of shot calling is not just knowing where the shot went at the instant it broke, but also of realizing immediately when your mind wandered, affording you the opportunity for a make-up shot, rather than hoping the hit is there.

I found it much easier to shoot as my vision dictates, when I stopped caring about the game --- that's the big realization from nursing school. Now, when I shoot, it's to take a break from all of the concerns and stresses of school, to catch up with friends who I don't see often enough. I don't practice or dry-fire most of the time. Not caring may be the single greatest benefit I've discovered to my shooting. (Yeah, I still care whether or not I beat Vlad and Raz-0; but in the grand scheme of things I'm too tired to really care; it's all good as long as I'm on the range.)