[Anon]

Inspired by another thread: http://www.brianenos...?...st&p=833129

When actually stopped in a position, and firing a single (or multiple shots from that position), are you holding your breath?

What about the draw?

If you are aware of holding your breath, do you know if you exhaled just before stoping, or inhaled?


For me, I believe my breath is held during any actual shooting, but I take quick breaths while moving, reloading, or even long pivoting between targets. I'm not sure of this, though, as my attention has never gone to my breathing.

[Catfish]

When shooting an array, I'm not breathing. When moving between arrays or reloading, yes, I take a breath.

On the draw, I've just had a long exhale and I'm waiting for the buzzer, kinda like prepping for a long range shot with a rifle.

[Pat Harrison]

Saul Kirsch had an interesting point on this and it can be proved, just aim at a berm with a big mag (roughly 20 rnds) in your gun and empty it. Not at bill drill speed obviously, but at a pace that will take you maybe a round per second and see if you start feeling out of air, reload if neccessary but see if you CAN breath while shooting.

[Jman]

Yes. Two deep ones before the beep while making ready. A slow exhale starts at stand by. Usually take short breaths between positions. How short depends on distance. I see more with O2 than with CO2


Jim

[G-ManBart]

JimmyM, on Oct 5 2008, 05:04 PM, said:

Yes. Two deep ones before the beep while making ready. A slow exhale starts at stand by. Usually take short breaths between positions. How short depends on distance. I see more with O2 than with CO2


Jim

Your explanation would make your answer a No rather than a Yes. He's asking about breathing while you're actually pressing the trigger. Saul Kirsch said he's studied it and that nobody does and it makes sense to me because I've found myself out of breath after a very short stage with a high round count.

For all the folks that haven't tried this, grab a gun, take a sight picture and then take a normal breath. The gun will rise up about 2" vertically...give or take. Does anybody see that while they're actually shooting at a target? A very slight, partial breath is about the most you can do without drastically moving the gun.

This post has been edited by G-ManBart: 05 October 2008 - 04:33 PM

[Jman]

G-ManBart, on Oct 5 2008, 04:24 PM, said:

JimmyM, on Oct 5 2008, 05:04 PM, said:

Yes. Two deep ones before the beep while making ready. A slow exhale starts at stand by. Usually take short breaths between positions. How short depends on distance. I see more with O2 than with CO2


Jim

Your explanation would make your answer a No rather than a Yes. He's asking about breathing while you're actually pressing the trigger. Saul Kirsch said he's studied it and that nobody does and it makes sense to me because I've found myself out of breath after a very short stage with a high round count.

For all the folks that haven't tried this, grab a gun, take a sight picture and then take a normal breath. The gun will rise up about 2" vertically...give or take. Does anybody see that while they're actually shooting at a target? A very slight, partial breath is about the most you can do without drastically moving the gun.

G-Man, I see what your saying. Perhaps I didn't understand the question. I do make a conscience effort to not hold my breath while pressing the trigger.
I get the "yips" bad if I do.

Jim

[JimmyZip]

Anyone who has hunted jackrabbits in sand dunes knows the answer to this. When you have run to the ridge of the dunes to shoot on the other side, and you stop to take aim, it's hard because your body wants to gasp for air, but your eyes want you to exhale slowly as you sqeeze. [the trigger]
This can lead to some funny things like the shakes, or wobble to your sight picture. Your body gets funny when you mess with the O2. This is where I learned about acceptable sight picture as a kid. If you waited until you were settled, your rabbit was LONG GONE

[G-ManBart]

JimmyM, on Oct 5 2008, 06:58 PM, said:

G-ManBart, on Oct 5 2008, 04:24 PM, said:

JimmyM, on Oct 5 2008, 05:04 PM, said:

Yes. Two deep ones before the beep while making ready. A slow exhale starts at stand by. Usually take short breaths between positions. How short depends on distance. I see more with O2 than with CO2


Jim

Your explanation would make your answer a No rather than a Yes. He's asking about breathing while you're actually pressing the trigger. Saul Kirsch said he's studied it and that nobody does and it makes sense to me because I've found myself out of breath after a very short stage with a high round count.

For all the folks that haven't tried this, grab a gun, take a sight picture and then take a normal breath. The gun will rise up about 2" vertically...give or take. Does anybody see that while they're actually shooting at a target? A very slight, partial breath is about the most you can do without drastically moving the gun.

G-Man, I see what your saying. Perhaps I didn't understand the question. I do make a conscience effort to not hold my breath while pressing the trigger.
I get the "yips" bad if I do.

Jim

I think what most people do isn't actively holding their breath as in, take in a deep breath and then hold it...which would be sorta strange feeling and probably lead to weird stuff happening after a couple of seconds. On the other hand, I think what's happening is that when they get to a position and exhale slightly, they don't take in a normal deep breath...it's just a pause in breathing, or very slightly allowing air to enter their lungs without taking in an active breath (diaphram not involved). We're not in any one position long enough for a pause like this to cause a problem or feel unusual.

Think about when someone gets startled...they take in a shallow breath and hold it....then they go "ahhhh...exhale and say, damn, you scared me"....but they didn't realize they were holding their breath for a few seconds.

Video and pics of this might prove interesting. I looked at a lot of the pics the Photomotion folks took at the Nationals and from the downrange, overhead camera you get a pretty interesting viewpoint. Some people have their tongue sticking out with their lips closed around it...not exactly what you'd expect of someone taking a normal breath after rushing into position.

This post has been edited by G-ManBart: 05 October 2008 - 08:59 PM

[HSMITH]

If you don't breathe you will die, scientific fact. Just don't let your breathing screw up the shot and all is well. Watch the dot/front sight and shoot, let the breathing thing work itself out. As long as you don't hold your breath all is fine.

[Anon]

G-ManBart, on Oct 5 2008, 11:52 PM, said:

....... I think what's happening is that .....it's just a pause in breathing.....

That's what I think is going on with me.

HSMITH, on Oct 6 2008, 12:04 AM, said:

If you don't breathe you will die, scientific fact. ... As long as you don't hold your breath all is fine.

Really? If I hold my breath, I'll die?!

That would explain all of the dead shooters at the target competitions. If only they had known.

G-ManBart, on Oct 5 2008, 07:24 PM, said:

.... He's asking about breathing while you're actually pressing the trigger.....

Yes, that is what I'm asking about. Are you inhaling or exhaling during the trigger press or recoil of the gun.

Unless the COF is under 4-5 seconds, I assume we all take a breath while on the course.

This post has been edited by Anon: 06 October 2008 - 06:10 AM

[G-ManBart]

Anon, on Oct 6 2008, 07:05 AM, said:

G-ManBart, on Oct 5 2008, 07:24 PM, said:

.... He's asking about breathing while you're actually pressing the trigger.....

Yes, that is what I'm asking about. Are you inhaling or exhaling during the trigger press or recoil of the gun.

Unless the COF is under 4-5 seconds, I assume we all take a breath while on the course.

I don't think anyone is really inhaling or exhaling during the trigger press. There might be some amount of air going in or out of the lungs from movement etc (like when you bend over and exhale slightly even though you're not actively exhaling), but it's generally a pause in breathing.

Sure people breathe during the COF, but it's in between the shooting. We don't usually spend more than a couple of seconds in any one place so there are plenty of opportunities to breathe.

As was asked in the other thread, it was the Saul Kirsch Master Class I video where he talks about this. R,

[HSMITH]

If you shoot the sight it doesn't matter.

[Jman]

We shoot s#!tty on CO2 and our best on O2.
Everyones exchange rate is different. Leaning to optimize our breathing technique
in any athletic endeavor can't be overestimated. If the first half of a stage (long or short)
is solid and the last not so much. Include breathing technique in your evaluation.


Jim

[SouthpawG26]

This is something i've been working on lately, to really get some deep breaths done while moving from position to position. It's hard to replicate in small drills and/or dry fire. I've found that a mag change on the move sometimes keeps me from my breathing. I put this down to still putting too much conscious effort into the reload.

BTW: watch TJ's shooting carefully; he really controls his breathing while moving.

[BritinUSA]

If shooting a large number of targets from one position I have noticed that I do not breathe. I know this as the first symptom of not breathing is my vision deteriorates. If you notice that your vision gets blurry when shooting a large number of targets then this is most likely the cause.

[Jake Di Vita]

Quote

Really? If I hold my breath, I'll die?!

That would explain all of the dead shooters at the target competitions. If only they had known.

You've obviously never shot the Ironman...

Don't think about it and just breathe. Your body is smarter than you are, let it do what it's supposed to do. Your attention should be on the shooting afterall right?

[shooter steve]

The worst thing for me is during a three gun stage, when you shoot pistol and/or shotgun and do a lot of running around, and then run over there and grab your rifle and start trying to shoot long range steel. Your body is screaming for O2 but your mind is screaming "slow exhale" for the shot. Your heart is beating so hard you can see it in the crosshairs, and you are so jacked up from adrenaline that you couldn't sit still with an elephant in your lap. It gets tough, real tough to hit those targets, and my hat is off to those that run those stages clean. With all that said, that is why I love this stuff! What a bunch of fun!!

[shrek1974]

Jake Di Vita, on Oct 6 2008, 08:16 AM, said:

Quote

Really? If I hold my breath, I'll die?!

That would explain all of the dead shooters at the target competitions. If only they had known.

You've obviously never shot the Ironman...

Don't think about it and just breathe. Your body is smarter than you are, let it do what it's supposed to do. Your attention should be on the shooting afterall right?

I'm with Jake on this one. Your body will take a breath when it needs to (does all the time, right?) Ultimately who cares if you breath or not when you are actually pressing the shot as long as you put the sights on the target and hold them there till the shot is gone down range.

[HighVelocity]

I breathe normally, unless I'm taking a 50+ yard shot, then I don't breathe until the shot breaks.

[Duane Thomas]

Quote

As was asked in the other thread, it was the Saul Kirsch Master Class I video where he talks about this.

I'll have to check that out. The only Saul Kirsch DVD I've ever seen is 3GM. Which is a hell of a DVD, by the way. Saul is a great shooter, and, from what I see on 3GM, a great instructor, as well. I do have to say, whenever I hear someone make a definitive statement like, "NO ONE every does THIS," I have to wonder just how true that is. There's a big difference between "I don't do it and in my experience most people don't" and "You can't do it so don't even try." Especially when doing this particular "something" is as important as oxygenating your body, and your eyesight, during shooting.

It would be great if we could get Saul's input on this matter, actually. This sort of critiquing someone else's commentary when I haven't even watched the DVD in question myself, and am only hearing about its content second hand makes me a little nervous, frankly.

[redmanfixit]

Pranayama practice (Yoga Breath) may help here. In the basic practice you simply begin to attend breath with awareness. We are often unconscious about what our breath is doing in most activities. When you begin to intentionally turn attention to breath in non stressed situations you gradually begin noticing it during stressed times. Awareness intrudes, kind of like a little nag, reminding you to breath. There is a basic pranayam technique to balance the hemispheres of the brain called alternate nostril breathing. Deep slow breathing immediately before you begin a stage increases the O2 level in the blood and helps to delay onset of O2 debt that comes with activity. It is natural to lock the throat (bunda) to brace the rib cage for any activity that requires precision. The arms are attached to the torso almost entirely by soft tissue. The only bone to bone connection is between the clavicle and the superior aspect of the sternum. ANY activity that requires precise control of the hands and arms makes us "brace up" from the neck and shoulders. (This pattern is the origin of most headaches) The trick is to take rest between periods of tension to allow the tissue to re-oxygenate and flush metabolites. Constant tension in soft tissue impairs blood supply. These techniques are used by Biathlon shooters to find the still places between heartbeats. I don't know if the coaches give proper attribution for the origins of the methods, but warriors that study at a high level have used them for about 3 thousand years. This sport requires precise motor skills and visual scope. Activities which are profoundly affected by blood O2 levels. Adding basic Pranayama to your training can only improve your performance!

Namaste

[dajarrel]

Mr. Smith and Mr. Di Vita kinda summed up my feelings on the matter.

If you don't breathe, you die...long term. The fact that folks are talking about getting tunnel vision or other oxygen deficiency symtoms tells me that you must breathe in order to perform.

Mr. Di Vita's comment on letting your body tell you when to breathe is, IMHO, the way to do it. Breathing is an involuntary act that can be overridden by your will for a short time. HighVelocity noted holding his breath on long shots. That is when slight sight movement can cause large bullet movements.

As for the average shooter, I really don't suspect they (I) ever think about it.

fwiw

dj

[TM262]

My sweetie ran her first stage this past weekend. The first question I asked her at the end of the stage was did you breathe? She said no. She was shaking like a leaf, but enjoyed herself and is looking forward to shoot a match. When I first started shooting, I would catch myself holding my breath too, but not much anymore.

This post has been edited by TM262: 08 October 2008 - 05:06 PM

[nomasterblaster]

how would you not breath?

[sslav]

HSMITH, on Oct 6 2008, 12:04 AM, said:

If you don't breathe you will die, scientific fact. Just don't let your breathing screw up the shot and all is well. Watch the dot/front sight and shoot, let the breathing thing work itself out. As long as you don't hold your breath all is fine.

If I am not moving about much, I can hold my breath under water for 1.5 minutes easy. If I am swimming under water I can hold it for 30 seconds. Holding my breath for a single target array is hardly a challenge. That said, I have not paid attention to whether or not I am holding my breath.