[askomiko]

10 FCP with HS precision stock. Looks fine. But the barrel is full of tooling marks across the rifling. Also, it shot wayyy to the left at 100m, I had to use pretty much all windage I had in the scope to get it zeroed. No good groups to speak of, but the jury is still out on that, because I cant shoot. I feel got a lemon. Daaamn!

This post has been edited by askomiko: 13 September 2008 - 12:27 PM

[HSMITH]

Who mounted the scope?

Rough bores don't necessarily shoot bad, I wouldn't worry about that yet.

[sfinney]

What types of rings and bases? For that matter, what scope? Make sure everything (rings/base/scope) is bolted up true to the action and torqued correctly. Might want to make sure the action is torqued correctly to the stock.

Once you eliminate all of that, and its still taking all of your windage adjustment to get on target, its either the rifle scope base holes on the receiver are off, or the scope is maybe having issues.

Savages are normally good to go out of the box, imho and limited experience, heck of a rifle for the money.

[askomiko]

EGW base and rings, Meopta 4-16 scope. Scope zeroed ok when I swapped it to my AR, so it seems I did not screw up the scope/rings install. So it leaves the base or the receiver. (barrell?) Damn, I knew I should have waited and saved 2x the $$$ and buy a custom rifle...

This post has been edited by askomiko: 13 September 2008 - 03:22 PM

[uscbigdawg]

Nothing wrong with a Savage. I'll tell you right now. If someone had a good detachable mag system for the Savage, I'd have at least one.

Rich

[HSMITH]

What sort of system are you using to align the rings? Two piece bases or one?

[askomiko]

Base: http://egw-guns.com/...products_id=179
Rings: http://egw-guns.com/...products_id=220

I shot a box of Lapua Aficionado with 168gr Scenars, and I couldn't make it group at all. I got same size groups with 5 shots that I got with 30 rounds of 55gr bulk ammo from AR15, fired fast. Yippee, my luck with rifles continues.

This post has been edited by askomiko: 14 September 2008 - 05:49 AM

[milanuk]

I've got a wee bit of experience w/ Savage rifles...

First the good news. With a wee bit of load development, most likely your gun *will* shoot as is. Even the misalignment between scope and barrel is fixable. Been there, done that.

Since you already have the base & rings (and yes, EGW is good stuff), my suggestions would be (in this order): 1) call Savage, and talk to them. They usually are pretty good about making things right. They are working very hard on making things *better* in their production process. 2) If you don't want to deal with possibly returning the rifle to the factory or importer for an inspection/repair/exchange, I'd suggest getting a set of Burris Signature Zee rings w/ the offset inserts. If you rotate the inserts 90° you now have a system for kicking your scope around to point the same direction as the barrel. Assuming a certain ring spacing, the inserts marked '10', '20', '30' will move your POI that many MOA. Since most people don't have that *exact* ring spacing for whatever reason, you might be wise to get a couple different sets (30mm rings may only have one thickness, '10') and play with them in the front and the rear ring to get things pointed where you want 'em w/ the scope windage mechanically zeroed.

The barrel may well shoot as is. I've had two (my original 10FP barrel from several years ago), and my current (2nd) match barrel in my 12 F/TR that were just rougher than a cob. I've looked through them w/ a Hawkeye bore scope; let me just warn you it ain't for the faint of heart or weak of stomach The first barrel, the one on the 10FP... looked like a hoof rasp like we used on horses back on the ranch where I grew up. If you know what one of those looks like, then you have some idea of how bad it was. The 12 F/TR barrel was slightly less fugly, but still not great. The solution (for me) was running a box of Tubbs Final Finish bullet through there. The *whole* box, following the instructions. Made a *huge* difference in how the barrel cleaned up, and generally tightened up the groups as well. It tends to recontour the throat a tad, so don't be surprised if you have to seat the bullets out a smidge to reach the lands As far as I can tell, it's more of a re-adjustment of the throat angle to something shallower (and more resembling what custom barrels get throated with) than a wholesale erosion of the throat, but thats just my opinion. As to whether such a barrel can ever shoot well... some folks would think not, but Team Savage (of which I'm a part) seems to do pretty well with the barrels we get. Would I like them to look/be better? Oh heck yes. But with some cleanup and load development, they do shoot - well enough to be a threat in 1000yd F-Class, anyways.

As for where the misalignment comes from... well, Savage is starting to move from a 22 or 23 step assembly line machining process, with all the associated opportunities for cumulative error, to CNC machining (got the first big cnc machine in December, went on line in early summer, I think it's just doing the new Target actions right now). Before that... yes, there were probably some that got machined funky. I've had Remingtons that a drunken monkey must have drilled the scope base holes in the receiver, so its not just a Savage problem. The other possibility is that the heat treating process may have caused some warpage. With the relatively thin connecting pieces between the front and rear receiver bridges... there is some significant opportunity for twisting as things cool down after heat treating. Now I think the current process is just to heat treat the front receiver portion, so that may be reduced somewhat. Lastly... who ever torques those barrels down must have arms like Popeye, as I've had a bugger of a time getting a couple of them off. Any debris in between the mating surfaces in there as things get wrenched down could cause some misalignment as well.

At any rate, first try contacting your dealer, the importer, or Savage, second try some rings like the Burris Signature series and get things lined up. Get that barrel cleaned up, and I think you'll be happy with your new rifle.

HTH,

Monte

This post has been edited by milanuk: 14 September 2008 - 01:23 PM

[JKSNIPER]

I have NO idea about EGW rings and bases.
I DO know what I was told by 2 different custom gunsmiths that deal almost exclusively with the L.E./Military snipers and that was that the ONLY rings and bases they did not have to work on to true them up were Badger Ord bases and rings.
Thats why Chandler rifles, GA Precision rifles etc....only use Badger Ord.
Rough bores are not the problem with your rifle.
I have seen rough bores shoot quite well and polished ones crap the bed.
I agree with the suggestion to call Savage and possibly send the rifle to them for their opinion.
If its shooting all the way to one side or another its usually something to do witht he mounting of the scope.
Rounds not grouping could be due to something shifting/moving because of the recoil forces.
I'd bet your problem is due to the mounting of the scope and also possibly due to the quality of the materials or possibly it not being torqued up correctly.
Order quality rings and bases that you can trust in the future and avoid a lot of problems.
JK
PS Edited :
Also use quality optics.
Put a $100 scope on a $3000 rifle and you have.....a $100 rifle.
#1. Schmidt and Bender Excellent durability and repeatability and clarity is like WOW! Unfortunately price also is like WOW!
#2. Nightforce NXS Scope I have on my rifle and it works great. No complaints and yyou won't notice a clarity difference unless the guy next to you is shooting an S&B scope and you roll over and take a look through it. Then you'll be jealous.....and cry....a lot.
#3. Leupold Has some repeatability issues but they will replace scopes that are not tracking correctly unless they're beaten up.
Decent optics for the $ but (IMHO) spend and little more and upgrade to a Nightforce .
Bushnell, burris, and others fall into the hunting grade optics catagory. Some claim precision adjustments but I've NEVER met a guy that put a "cheap" scope on a rifle that did not regret it somewhere down the road.
Good luck with it.
JK

This post has been edited by JKSNIPER: 14 September 2008 - 01:58 PM

[fastshooter03]

Take a magnifying glass and look at the crown. MY original 10FP came with a messed up crown. It actually looked like the cutter skipped a spot or there was a hard spot(unlikely) but it wasn't right. Gunsmith confirmed and fixed it.
Does it group at all? If it does shoot good groups the crown is not the problem.
I'd take the action out of the stock, lay it on it's side and measure to the ring base at the front and rear. If the base is the same width all the way that should give you an idea if it's on straight by measuring the distance from the table to the same point at the front and rear.
My friend has a Meopta 4-16 with the diamond mil-dot. Haven't seen anything wrong with it other than NO arrows indicating which direction to move the W&E adjustments. We determined it was the same as a Leupold so he has to just remember that.

Nick

[askomiko]

Well, I went to the store and changed it to another one, this also has ugly barrel. I tested it quickly before work, this at least seems to shoot better:




I'll accept this one, maybe it's possible to get this one to shoot ok.

This post has been edited by askomiko: 15 September 2008 - 05:29 AM

[Gun Geek]

uscbigdawg, on Sep 13 2008, 06:20 PM, said:

Nothing wrong with a Savage. I'll tell you right now. If someone had a good detachable mag system for the Savage, I'd have at least one.

Rich

A bit off the subject of this thread, but take a look here for a mag system...

http://www.sharpshoo....com/index.html

[kgunz11]

milanuk, on Sep 14 2008, 04:17 PM, said:

I've got a wee bit of experience w/ Savage rifles...

First the good news. With a wee bit of load development, most likely your gun *will* shoot as is. Even the misalignment between scope and barrel is fixable. Been there, done that.

Since you already have the base & rings (and yes, EGW is good stuff), my suggestions would be (in this order): 1) call Savage, and talk to them. They usually are pretty good about making things right. They are working very hard on making things *better* in their production process. 2) If you don't want to deal with possibly returning the rifle to the factory or importer for an inspection/repair/exchange, I'd suggest getting a set of Burris Signature Zee rings w/ the offset inserts. If you rotate the inserts 90° you now have a system for kicking your scope around to point the same direction as the barrel. Assuming a certain ring spacing, the inserts marked '10', '20', '30' will move your POI that many MOA. Since most people don't have that *exact* ring spacing for whatever reason, you might be wise to get a couple different sets (30mm rings may only have one thickness, '10') and play with them in the front and the rear ring to get things pointed where you want 'em w/ the scope windage mechanically zeroed.

The barrel may well shoot as is. I've had two (my original 10FP barrel from several years ago), and my current (2nd) match barrel in my 12 F/TR that were just rougher than a cob. I've looked through them w/ a Hawkeye bore scope; let me just warn you it ain't for the faint of heart or weak of stomach The first barrel, the one on the 10FP... looked like a hoof rasp like we used on horses back on the ranch where I grew up. If you know what one of those looks like, then you have some idea of how bad it was. The 12 F/TR barrel was slightly less fugly, but still not great. The solution (for me) was running a box of Tubbs Final Finish bullet through there. The *whole* box, following the instructions. Made a *huge* difference in how the barrel cleaned up, and generally tightened up the groups as well. It tends to recontour the throat a tad, so don't be surprised if you have to seat the bullets out a smidge to reach the lands As far as I can tell, it's more of a re-adjustment of the throat angle to something shallower (and more resembling what custom barrels get throated with) than a wholesale erosion of the throat, but thats just my opinion. As to whether such a barrel can ever shoot well... some folks would think not, but Team Savage (of which I'm a part) seems to do pretty well with the barrels we get. Would I like them to look/be better? Oh heck yes. But with some cleanup and load development, they do shoot - well enough to be a threat in 1000yd F-Class, anyways.

As for where the misalignment comes from... well, Savage is starting to move from a 22 or 23 step assembly line machining process, with all the associated opportunities for cumulative error, to CNC machining (got the first big cnc machine in December, went on line in early summer, I think it's just doing the new Target actions right now). Before that... yes, there were probably some that got machined funky. I've had Remingtons that a drunken monkey must have drilled the scope base holes in the receiver, so its not just a Savage problem. The other possibility is that the heat treating process may have caused some warpage. With the relatively thin connecting pieces between the front and rear receiver bridges... there is some significant opportunity for twisting as things cool down after heat treating. Now I think the current process is just to heat treat the front receiver portion, so that may be reduced somewhat. Lastly... who ever torques those barrels down must have arms like Popeye, as I've had a bugger of a time getting a couple of them off. Any debris in between the mating surfaces in there as things get wrenched down could cause some misalignment as well.

At any rate, first try contacting your dealer, the importer, or Savage, second try some rings like the Burris Signature series and get things lined up. Get that barrel cleaned up, and I think you'll be happy with your new rifle.

HTH,

Monte

+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
on Monte, he KNOWS what he's talking about and he can flat out shoot too!

[SLM]

A sub one inch group, at 165 yards, out of the box, with a quick test before work. Um, yea. I think that one has potential. Enjoy!

[askomiko]

Update #2, the first rifle was a lemon, the second one obviously is not. Shot at 150m/165yd range, 168gr Berger VLD and Vihtavuori N150, making a group too small to measure.

Ugly and rough gun, but it works.

[calishootr]

my savage 110??? was a POS till I turned it over to my trusted friend and absolute wiz w/ rifles, he recommended a new trigger(this was waaaay before savage had its new accu-triggers) my 'smith found all kinds ofthings that would hinder accuracy ie... crown was dinged, the stock needed some cleaning up, the bolt didnt fully close(hit and stopped on the stock) and of course the trigger was horrible, oh it would probably shoot 3 inches at 100 and make 99 other people happy, but i wanted better, my smith made the corrections, including dropping in a trigger by sharpshooter, and im happy to say the last time out w/ it i made a 400 yrd shot on a ground squirrel, yeah it WAS a POS, now its a keeper

[M118LR]

I have two Savage rifles. One in 308 and the other in 223. Both rifles are 110FP Tacticals. Both of them shoot GREAT. They will easliy shoot 1/2 MOA or better at 100 yards with my handloads. Savage rifles are good rifles for the price.

[taco101]

Savage rifle will out shoot most riflemen. Good to see your issues worked out. Lots of info on the net to make your trigger even better.

[Bill T]

"Also, it shot wayyy to the left at 100m, I had to use pretty much all windage I had in the scope to get it zeroed."

I had this exact same issue on my Savage Model 10-FP. The receiver holes were not only drilled way off, but the holes were full of encrusted crap from whatever Savage uses on their spray on coating because they don't use plug screws. The only way you will fix this is either by using a windage adjustable base, or else do what I did and use standard tactical bases, and go with the excellent Burris Signature Zee Rings with the plastic inserts. Burris sells an inexpensive offset insert kit that allows you to move your scope around while keeping your adjustments central. The inserts come in + and - halves. You simply use them in matched pairs. You can use them vertically, horizontally, or even diagonally. My holes in the receiver were so far off I used a +.020 and a -.020 in the front ring, and the same, but opposite in the rear ring. When I was done the rifle printed about 2" left at 100 yards with the scope adjustments set as the scope came from the box.

I have these rings on 3 Savage rifles now, and a Weatherby, and they are the only rings I use. They are self centering, hold really well, and will never mar a scope tube. They also eliminate any lapping because they self center the scope without putting any stress on the tube itself. They are available in 1", and 30MM. Once you try them, you never use another brand of ring again.

I have a new .50 BMG Bushmaster BA-50 coming to Randall's this morning, and when I scope it out I'll be using another set of Burris Signature Rings. It just doesn't make sense to mess with anything else. One other thing I would add is if you have used all the travel in your windage adjustment, that in itself could be part of the problem with open groups. Some scopes wander a bit if they are at the very limit in elevation or windage travel. Bill T.