[Rob Boudrie]

I'm starting this thread to gather comments about how things go with the Palm scoring at the nationals- the existing thread consists of posts before the event, so I figured it would be a good idea to have a new one for comments from people see it in action.

[BritinUSA]

Does anyone have any input on the Palm scoring, I'm interested to hear how it's working out ?

[Matt Cheely]

2 stages in 1 bay without enough "tech savy" help = bad....

[David Olhasso]

Couple stages where the lack of "tech-savy" ROs was a minor issue.
My biggest complaint is that the shooter CANNOT watch (as in validate) as the RO writes down the scores.

[Unleashed]

With as much time as it takes to navigate the shooter list and pull up the right one, score the targets and transfer the total to paper......they could still score the targets on paper and then transfer the scores to the palm. It means 1. A lot less changes to the previous format 2. An instant hard copy backup (and as mentioned, you can see what is being recorded in real time) 3. Less time time saying "hold on, I am not done scoring the last shooter".

I am in no way blaming the ROs for not being quick enough (I just bought a smart phone that is smarter than me and it took me 5 minutes to add a new phone number!). I just think the system they are using isn't efficient enough. If the scores were recorded on paper the score keeper could go take the time to electronically enter the score while the next shooter was getting ready/shooting. If there was a snag, there is already a paper backup on hand and the shooting can go on.

Just my $0.02

[Chris Keen]

I like that idea allot!

[tgibson]

It almost bit me and one of my squadmates REALLY bad today!! There was a hit that was called as an A/C and then when the RO came over to look at it he changed his mind and called it A/A. While the person with the palm was changing the score, a couple of targets got taped before they got scored....my bad : ( Luckily the shooter cut his time by 1.5 seconds and had better hits..good job JT!!
I just think it would have been a lot faster to scratch out the C and put in an additional A on the hard copy. Then while the next shooter is shooting, the scores could be put into the palm. My $.02.
Adios,
TG

This post has been edited by tgibson: 07 September 2008 - 07:55 PM

[jasmap]

Unleashed, on Sep 7 2008, 07:39 PM, said:

With as much time as it takes to navigate the shooter list and pull up the right one, score the targets and transfer the total to paper......they could still score the targets on paper and then transfer the scores to the palm. It means 1. A lot less changes to the previous format 2. An instant hard copy backup (and as mentioned, you can see what is being recorded in real time) 3. Less time time saying "hold on, I am not done scoring the last shooter".

I am in no way blaming the ROs for not being quick enough (I just bought a smart phone that is smarter than me and it took me 5 minutes to add a new phone number!). I just think the system they are using isn't efficient enough. If the scores were recorded on paper the score keeper could go take the time to electronically enter the score while the next shooter was getting ready/shooting. If there was a snag, there is already a paper backup on hand and the shooting can go on.

Just my $0.02

A HUGE +1 to this idea.

[Flexmoney]

tgibson, on Sep 7 2008, 10:53 PM, said:

It almost bit me and one of my squadmates REALLY bad today!! There was a hit that was called as an A/C and then when the RO came over to look at it he changed his mind and called it A/A. While the person with the palm was changing the score, a couple of targets got taped before they got scored....my bad

That has little to do with Palm scoring. That happens often enough with paper too.

[Flexmoney]

David Olhasso, on Sep 7 2008, 10:09 PM, said:

My biggest complaint is that the shooter CANNOT watch (as in validate) as the RO writes down the scores.

I've never seen any shooter...ever...watch what the RO writes down. ???

I always verify the hits before I sign my score sheet, but I've just never seen a shooter look over the clipboard RO's shoulder while they write in the hits. Usually, with the shooter's that pay attention, they are following the timer RO and looking at the hits on the targets.

What am I missing there?

[blownhemi]

Flexmoney, on Sep 8 2008, 01:14 PM, said:

David Olhasso, on Sep 7 2008, 10:09 PM, said:

My biggest complaint is that the shooter CANNOT watch (as in validate) as the RO writes down the scores.

I've never seen any shooter...ever...watch what the RO writes down. ???

I always verify the hits before I sign my score sheet, but I've just never seen a shooter look over the clipboard RO's shoulder while they write in the hits. Usually, with the shooter's that pay attention, they are following the timer RO and looking at the hits on the targets.

What am I missing there?

Yep, no one i know what's the scorer write the scores but they check it all adds up after the fact and if something doesn't feel right (ie: a Delta when none was called) then you question it.

We've had plenty of screw up with paper. Last match I shot some idiot put all the scores in a B's and we only shoot Classic targets in Australia (no B zone). Paper isn't fool proof at all.

I like Palm and it's easy to step back if the RO changes a call.

[pjb45]

Over the years I have been responsible for implementing new systems in the healthcare industry. Every complaint registered so far has been voiced by employees who had to learn a new systems and people who were affected by the new system. My point is that this is normal and to be expected.

I would suggest that the Management failed to manage the shooters expectations. They should have spent time helping the shooters deal with the new technology.

After a new system has been installed for a while -- there was almost universal agreement that no one wanted to go back to the old system. If that was any indication, it should be the same with the palm system. The success of any new system is in preparing the people.

BTW: operatora error almost caused my a reshoot today. luckily the system recovered the data. it took alittle longer was it worked. given more time people will become more proficient.

[Unleashed]

blownhemi, on Sep 7 2008, 08:22 PM, said:

I like Palm and it's easy to step back if the RO changes a call.

Umm...not from what I saw today. It might just be growing pains. Like I said in another thread, I run with the most up to date (high speed) equipment when I am working but I always have a back up that doesn't rely on volts! Those back ups spend more time being primary than you could imagine. I don't see what we gain by using the Palm to get the initial score...except for saving paper. But....I have the argument covered as well.

Why not take the initial score on acetate with a permanent marker. Dry erase wouldn't work because it could get brushed and wiped away. Permanent marker, or even grease pencil can still be wiped off, alcohol for the marker or a simple cloth for the grease pencil. Now we are being "GREEN" and keeping it simple!

[Unleashed]

pjb45, on Sep 7 2008, 08:39 PM, said:

I would suggest that the Management failed to manage the shooters expectations. They should have spent time helping the shooters deal with the new technology.

After a new system has been installed for a while -- there was almost universal agreement that no one wanted to go back to the old system. If that was any indication, it should be the same with the palm system. The success of any new system is in preparing the people.

I just had a flashback to the NCO academy where they tell us that, as managers, it is our job to implement change by convincing the people we manage that "the change is good and they will like it". In most cases, this is the right way for managers to think and behave. However, there are exceptions. I think we sometimes get ahead of ourselves with technology. We aren't gaining anything in the ability to initially score the targets...we are taking a step back.

[Franksremote]

Seems to be working well enough. Hiccups seem to be with the unfamiliarity with the system and not its application. Kinda weird not to be able to reference a "familiar" scoresheet, but everything's added up right so far as well as the summary "receipts" to reference later, just different. I'd like to see more "real time" updating on the web if it's this technologically advanced anyways, otherwise, appears to be a good "upgrade".

My 2 cents...

[Rocket35]

They have been testing this out at my home club (with one squad per match). I would still like (prefer) to have the paper carbon copy of my score sheet to review later. When I shot up north this was only available at major matches. I like that the club is using the carbon copy paper every match.

[Chuck Anderson]

I don't like it one bit. I don't see any advantage to the Palm Scoring. It takes longer, there is less accountability and I've seen way too many mistakes. Having to score the disappearing targets last is also a huge waste of time and has resulted in a copule reshoots on our squad.

[Bwana Six-Gun]

Our only problems so far have not come with the palm scoring, but with the RO's not being familiar with it and going through growing pains. The biggest problsm we have had is a couple of RO's not knowing the correct rules and having to call the RM to get it straightened out. Not knocking these guys though, they are out there all day and not getting any rest to speak of. My hat is off to them. Anybody can make a mistake.

[stockton]

Lawman, on Sep 8 2008, 03:13 PM, said:

I don't like it one bit. I don't see any advantage to the Palm Scoring. It takes longer, there is less accountability and I've seen way too many mistakes. Having to score the disappearing targets last is also a huge waste of time and has resulted in a copule reshoots on our squad.

Why reshoots?

[tpcdvc]

stockton, on Sep 8 2008, 05:23 PM, said:

Lawman, on Sep 8 2008, 03:13 PM, said:

I don't like it one bit. I don't see any advantage to the Palm Scoring. It takes longer, there is less accountability and I've seen way too many mistakes. Having to score the disappearing targets last is also a huge waste of time and has resulted in a copule reshoots on our squad.

Why reshoots?

Disappearing targets will not score a mike if you have one on it. So, if you score it in the wrong place you get the penalty.

[tpcdvc]

Are they not having the shooters sign a summery and then give them a copy??

[Chuck Anderson]

stockton, on Sep 8 2008, 05:23 PM, said:

Lawman, on Sep 8 2008, 03:13 PM, said:

I don't like it one bit. I don't see any advantage to the Palm Scoring. It takes longer, there is less accountability and I've seen way too many mistakes. Having to score the disappearing targets last is also a huge waste of time and has resulted in a copule reshoots on our squad.

Why reshoots?

RO walks by a target, you're used to them scoring it and it gets taped. RO comes back after scoring the rest of the stage. Happened mostly on the first day. They are having the shooters sign the summary, but it's not very useful for figuring anything out about the stage. The number of hits don't even alway match up since NPM's aren't recorded. All you see is 14 A, 2 C and 1 D, or whatever.

[wgnoyes]

Flexmoney, on Sep 7 2008, 11:14 PM, said:

David Olhasso, on Sep 7 2008, 10:09 PM, said:

My biggest complaint is that the shooter CANNOT watch (as in validate) as the RO writes down the scores.

I've never seen any shooter...ever...watch what the RO writes down. ???

I always verify the hits before I sign my score sheet, but I've just never seen a shooter look over the clipboard RO's shoulder while they write in the hits. Usually, with the shooter's that pay attention, they are following the timer RO and looking at the hits on the targets.

What am I missing there?

Probably nothing. If it's me finishing a stage, I'm either picking up brass or magazines, or at a major match, following around the RO who calling out the hits. I've never watched the RO with the clipboard actually filling in anything; usually I don't see him until I walk back uprange to sign the scoresheet.

[Buzzdraw]

There has to be a better way to improve match scoring, besides Palm Pilots. I do not like my lack of ability to see what score the eye strained, squinting RO is attempting to enter for me. Yes, I like that I can listen to the lead RO and watch the RO writing scores, particularly at a major match.

There is no real "check and balance" with this PP method. All the shooter gets is a tiny 1" x 8.5" slip of paper with his total hits and time.

The range stage staff often gets to do extra walking to score, which adds to the stage run time, which makes the match day longer for everyone (especially the suffering RO's).

There have been a number of reshoots/delays due to the PP learning curve.

Will we think PP's are great when the match scores come out basically instantly after the last shot? Maybe. Two years from now will we wonder how we did without them? Maybe/maybe not.

[JThompson]

What would be cool is a touchpad that goes under the sheet of paper and then the just hand you the paper after you sign. Then that score is beemed from the touchpad to computer. Seems like it would be an ideal way to do it.