[D.carden]

At our club level 3gun match in Richmond Ca yesterday, we were required to empty all long guns completely before grounding. Unlike the shotgun (where most or all would shoot it empty until the bolt locked back) the rifle was always cleared with the charge handle after dumping the mag.
But, is it faster to dump the mag and shoot the last round while still on target (an extra hit)....vs.....what seems to be a "need to know for sure it's empty" charge handle extract method.....?????

For this situation what is your choice................trigger or charge handle...????

Dan

[P.Pres]

D.carden, on Jul 28 2008, 08:14 AM, said:

At our club level 3gun match in Richmond Ca yesterday, we were required to empty all long guns completely before grounding. Unlike the shotgun (where most or all would shoot it empty until the bolt locked back) the rifle was always cleared with the charge handle after dumping the mag.
But, is it faster to dump the mag and shoot the last round while still on target (an extra hit)....vs.....what seems to be a "need to know for sure it's empty" charge handle extract method.....?????

For this situation what is your choice................trigger or charge handle...????

Dan

Dan, I think they are about the same in speed and some matches are starting to DQ for it if your
not engaging a target. I saw a pretty well know get DQed for this at Superstition !!

[maineshootah]

DIRTY CHAMBER, on Jul 28 2008, 10:27 AM, said:

Dan, I think they are about the same in speed and some matches are starting to DQ for it if your
not engaging a target. I saw a pretty well know get DQed for this at Superstition !!

When you get to the line ASK the RO if you can speed unload.

Some will say, if you are on a target, shoot as many as you like..
Others will say, you can shoot into the berm..
Others will say.. hell no! drop the mag and rack it..

I have done all three, it depends on the match rules and the RO - ask them.

[outerlimits]

that's what we need-another way to abandon a firearm. heck, uspsa gives us 3 ways already.

dan, what was the reason for this? course design cause a shooter to get in front of the long gun?

[D.carden]

outerlimits, on Jul 28 2008, 07:06 AM, said:

that's what we need-another way to abandon a firearm. heck, uspsa gives us 3 ways already.

dan, what was the reason for this? course design cause a shooter to get in front of the long gun?

Butch,
all the long guns were shot first.....pistols were last and down range. With Richmond having walls and not berms it was deemed safer to have an empty gun facing the walls................


But, staying on track here........

Is it faster to shoot the "chambered" round while engaging a target after dumping the mag.....or.....taking the time to operate the charge handle........(economy of motion)..????

[BerKim]

I'm far more used to dumping and racking when I'm done.. it's not second nature.. just habit.. so that's faster for me.

Yesterday, I couldn't stop myself from locking the bolt back too.

This post has been edited by BerKim: 28 July 2008 - 08:47 AM

[get2now]

I think shooting the last round is faster.

G

[P.Pres]

With a tactical latch it's pretty fast and if it's slower your talking 10th's here.
In a 50-200sec 3-gun stage, it's not going to make too much of a difference.
I pefer to rack it because it feels safer. If the rule is that everyone has clear this way
then speed is really not an issue since everyone has to do it...

Now if your talking about triple tapping the last target and no berms shots or random shots
at the closest target then it's faster and perfectly safe but still not as assuring...

[Big Bore]

You can get yourself in shitload of trouble hoseing the last round into the berm. Drop the mag and rack it and watch the round eject. You can do this while placing the rifle on a table or in a drum. Maybe slower in some situations but it is fool proof.

[Religious Shooter]

It's faster to shoot it out... but I don't.

Whenever I see someone dumping a round it kind of freaks me out.

[gose]

Dan, I think it depended on which squad you were in. Pretty much everyone in my squad did the "drop and fire"

This post has been edited by gose: 28 July 2008 - 10:51 PM

[jbullgpd]

drop mag and shoot for me as long as it is allowed.....

[mpeltier]

I think its faster and safer to rack it out. In order to shoot it out you must remain on the target a bit longer as you have to move your finger to the mag release then back to the trigger break the shot and then still lower the gun to the grounding point. My preferance is after the last required shot to drop the mag and rack the charge handle in one motion as I lower the gun to the grounding point. No extra time wasted as with releasing the mag then taking another shot. Plus this gives the added benefit of seeing the round eject and knowing you dumped the mag before your percieved emptying shot. I practice this at home with dummy rounds.

This post has been edited by mpeltier: 29 July 2008 - 05:57 AM

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm going the other way. I think it's safer and faster to shoot the last round out into the target. (Assuming your match is bassackwards enough to require grounding an empty gun) The problem I have with folks racking the action is it really doesn't mean much if you screw the order up, which I see alot. Example: Finish string, rack round out (oohh look at the pretty round go flying through the air, I have an empty gun) and then drop mag. Happens enough during UASC with the pistol when it's not on the clock. I know folks that have done with with the rifle on the clock. I also see all sorts of weird variations of racking the action when folks are running to dump the gun. The muzzle goes strange places.

If you shoot the last round out on the target, bang, bang, dump mag, pull trigger till it stops going bang. If it keeps going bang, you have done something wrong. The safest way is grounding the hot gun in a safe direction. Despite what some folks seem to think, it will not sprout legs and go on a killing rampage all by itself.

[kurtm]

AHHHH Lawman, my trusty stead is watered and the lance is sharpened!! To whit!! Of course even if the guns "sprouted legs" they could never go on a "killing rampage", they would need hands and fingers to manipulate the triggers. That is why to "win the fight" you have to be able to blow their hands off their body not shoot the gun out of their hands as taught at some of the high speed schools. Barring that, you need their hands to be clutching at leaking pumps and circulation systems. I would hate to think the amount of times I have been back shot by the "leg wounded" I can't help but feel that is why we got Che's hands...so he couldn't shoot anymore.

Now with that out of the way....You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!!!! Shoot it out till it doesn't make noise, after dumping the magazine, if they force you to do it at all!. Way safer and I have yet to see a detonation while doing it this way, where I have seen a couple with the racking method. if given the choice I will always shoot it dry....the safe way!!!


And remember sticks and stones have hurt lots of folks, but they were always held in the hands and fingers first

[P.Pres]

kurtm, on Aug 5 2008, 06:30 PM, said:

And remember sticks and stones have hurt lots of folks, but they were always held in the hands and fingers first

Ohhh, I like that !!

[Chris]

kurtm, on Aug 5 2008, 05:30 PM, said:

AHHHH Lawman, my trusty stead is watered and the lance is sharpened!! To whit!! Of course even if the guns "sprouted legs" they could never go on a "killing rampage", they would need hands and fingers to manipulate the triggers. That is why to "win the fight" you have to be able to blow their hands off their body not shoot the gun out of their hands as taught at some of the high speed schools. Barring that, you need their hands to be clutching at leaking pumps and circulation systems. I would hate to think the amount of times I have been back shot by the "leg wounded" I can't help but feel that is why we got Che's hands...so he couldn't shoot anymore.

Kurt's incoherent ramblings are starting to worry me...

I prefer to rack the rifle empty and shoot the shotgun empty. Mostly because the grounding spot for the rifle isn't always next to where you are shooting and you can clear it on the move. The SG should be empty on the last shot anyways, but if not its easier to pull the trigger than mess with shell releases and such.

[kurtm]

Chris, just think how my mom feels!

[busyhawk]

I am still waiting for an answer to the original question from someone that has timed the event...anyone? Just from last shot fired to abandon the rifle into the table/barrel/rack. I don't think there is any time lost either way.


My .02 cents:

Dropping the magazine and then shooting it empty is safer given the right conditions. I like racking the round out but this is "Standard Operating Procedure" (SOP) in the ARMY where we have controled conditions and time, at matches we don't have that! I am teaching (NRA RO, and USPSA RSO) not to empty by pulling the trigger. I believe there is a right time to pull the trigger to empty the magazine fed rifle but it is not an SOP I would follow.

Scott Hawkins
AKA Busyhawk