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Pekiti Take-Off


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#1 CSEMARTIN

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 07:31 PM

I just finished watching a video produced by Gabe Suarez. I realize the "tactical" discussions often turn out poorly so please don't let this turn into a tactical versus practical discussion. I'd hate to see this thread get shut down.

After reading Brian's book, I realize we can take skills from anyone or anything and apply them to practical shooting. Why not take a move from the tactical side of shooting and use it to our advantage?

Basically, Gabe describes the Pekiti Take-Off in his video. The point of this move is to get moving from a stationary position as quickly as posible. I know this topic has been discussed before, but I am not so sure this technique has. Basically, if you're going to move to the right, you kick out your left leg as quickly as you can, land the leg and use it to propel you in the direction you want to go. I hope that makes sense. It's easier to watch than describe.

I'm wondering what other techniques you guys have seen from watching your "tactical" videos that could be applied to practical shooting.

For all I know, Gabe stole this move from us!! I just thought it was worth mentioning.

#2 NMBOpen

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 07:37 PM

There is "Crossover and Roll" thread from dirtypool40: http://www.brianenos...mp;hl=crossover that sounds quite similar - maybe a different name for the same technique.
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#3 CSEMARTIN

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 08:12 PM

How do I take the DVD and post a clip where Gabe shows how this is done?

#4 HoMiE

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 08:16 PM

Like this...

http://www.brianenos...showtopic=66966
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#5 DonT

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 08:43 PM

Like this...

http://www.brianenos...showtopic=66966



+1 this is great!!!
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#6 Airic

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 08:59 PM

On the flip side of that, I have actually taken what I have learned and experienced in USPSA/IDPA shooting and applied it to the tactical side. A lot of what I have learned about shooting from dry fire, brian and sauls books, have helped me out in my LEO/Military career. Not in actual tactics, but the awareness gained and ability to shoot accurately from any position. I use this while I train LEO/Military in firearms and tactics.

I think the statement I use the most is "It doesnt matter what you are doing or what position you are in, it doesnt matter if you are hanging upside down and swinging from side to side. If your sights are aligned on the center mass of the target when the shot breaks, you will hit."

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#7 Filishooter

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 10:15 PM

For all I know, Gabe stole this move from us!! I just thought it was worth mentioning.


Just for reference, the "Pekiti Take-off" is from Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, a form of Filipino Martial Arts headed by Tuhon Leo Gaji. I know Suerez has been training with Mark Denny of the Dog Brothers Martial Arts who is an instructor under Gaji so that may be where he got it from as opposed to stealing it from you.

I teach this technique in my Filipino Martial Arts class and I do use it in competition when appropriate. You essentially load one leg with torsional plyometric energy and explode off of it. This is different from the "drop-push" method, energy is generated primarily from the twisting action of the leg and hips as opposed to muscular contraction. Its like putting your legs and hips into a punch only its directed towards movement.

Here is a little clearer explanation. If you have a slight left foot forward lead and you want to move right. you draw you left foot back under the weight of your body in a slight counter clockwise motion while at the same time you unweight you right foot. Your left leg is loaded up and you snap your hips towards the direction you want to go. Sounds like a lot but all this happens very quickly. If done properly you can get up to your full running speed in a few steps.

Edited by Filishooter, 22 July 2008 - 10:32 PM.


#8 Viggen

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 10:22 PM

Put it on a timer.
The clock knows all truth in movement.
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#9 Filishooter

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 10:58 PM

Put it on a timer.
The clock knows all truth in movement.


The problem with "putting it on a timer" is that someone not trained in how to do that technique will quickly dismiss it. If you don't do it correctly it WILL be slower than a technique you are already doing.

It would be better to say "if you are interested in seeing if it works for you, learn it, practice it, then put it on a timer." Not many people will invest the time before putting to the clock.

#10 AWLAZS

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 06:08 AM

For all I know, Gabe stole this move from us!! I just thought it was worth mentioning.


Just for reference, the "Pekiti Take-off" is from Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, a form of Filipino Martial Arts headed by Tuhon Leo Gaji. I know Suerez has been training with Mark Denny of the Dog Brothers Martial Arts who is an instructor under Gaji so that may be where he got it from as opposed to stealing it from you.

I teach this technique in my Filipino Martial Arts class and I do use it in competition when appropriate. You essentially load one leg with torsional plyometric energy and explode off of it. This is different from the "drop-push" method, energy is generated primarily from the twisting action of the leg and hips as opposed to muscular contraction. Its like putting your legs and hips into a punch only its directed towards movement.

Here is a little clearer explanation. If you have a slight left foot forward lead and you want to move right. you draw you left foot back under the weight of your body in a slight counter clockwise motion while at the same time you unweight you right foot. Your left leg is loaded up and you snap your hips towards the direction you want to go. Sounds like a lot but all this happens very quickly. If done properly you can get up to your full running speed in a few steps.


This sounds like what DP calls a cross over exit. The left foot goes first to the right. The right foot goes first to the left

#11 CSEMARTIN

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:24 AM

How do I take the DVD and post a clip where Gabe shows how this is done?


If someone knows how I can post a short clip of the video, please send me a PM. I think this technique is better and different that what has been described, but I could be wrong.

#12 Flatland Shooter

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:29 AM

For all I know, Gabe stole this move from us!! I just thought it was worth mentioning.


Here is a little clearer explanation. If you have a slight left foot forward lead and you want to move right. you draw you left foot back under the weight of your body in a slight counter clockwise motion while at the same time you unweight you right foot. Your left leg is loaded up and you snap your hips towards the direction you want to go. Sounds like a lot but all this happens very quickly. If done properly you can get up to your full running speed in a few steps.


If I understand correctly, if moving to the right, the first step is to pull your left leg back under your body, second shift weight to the left foot taking the weight off of the right foot, and third begin the move to the right with the left foot.

If you are starting from this position, can you just begin with the left foot in the correct position then quickly shift weight to the left foot and begin the move with the right foot?

Is this correct? Or even close?

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#13 Filishooter

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:44 AM

If you are starting from this position, can you just begin with the left foot in the correct position then quickly shift weight to the left foot and begin the move with the right foot?



You can, but you won't have the explosive take-off action. What makes it work is the coiling action of the leg and the hip twist in the direction of movement (I actually made a mistake in explaining the movement - the left leg would come back in a semi-clockwise motion, foot pointing slightly to the left leg coiled). What I mean by coiled is that its not only compressed downward like a spring but also has twisting energy. Imagine you are putting out a cigarette with your foot. but instead of releasing the energy its directed from the twist of the ankle, through the knee and into the hip.

What you are explaining would be a lunge step (like in fencing) unweight the lead leg and pushoff with the rear. And its not a crossover step, sometime we call it a replacement step as the take off leg is replacing the location of other leg which has unweighted and started in the direction of travel. Its more similar to a drop step than a crossover.

As I mentioned I do use it in competition but only when the situation presents itself. If you load the take-off leg in the opposite direction of travel then some other footwork may be faster as the quick takeoff is offset by the economy of motion of just going the direction you want to go. Its a rather violent move so if you are wanting to fire moving out of position while doing it your hits will suffer. Likewise it may be difficult to do a reload in the first few steps doing the take-off. Also as you mentioned if your not in position to get a solid take-off then it would be a waste of time to setup to do it. I'm a lefty and I probably use it most shooting around a right side barracade or port when I neeed to reverse directions and head back the other way. Pulling the right foot back to go left is in the direction I want to go.

The Pekiti takeoff is nice technique but its not always the best method. I already had the technique from 20 years of Filipino Martial Arts practice so its natural for me. It wuold be up to you if you think its worth investing time in to learn.

Edited by Filishooter, 23 July 2008 - 08:10 AM.


#14 adweisbe

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 08:18 AM

I cannot visualize this at all. Can someone please post a video or picture of this technique?

Edited by adweisbe, 23 July 2008 - 08:19 AM.


#15 Filishooter

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 10:24 AM

I cannot visualize this at all. Can someone please post a video or picture of this technique?



Kind of like learning Karate by video...without the video.

I'll try to take some this weekend.

#16 CSEMARTIN

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 11:13 AM

If I understand correctly, if moving to the right, the first step is to pull your left leg back under your body


That's the opposite of what I'm saying. If moving to the right, you kick your left leg out, plant it, and push off of it.

I can see how this is hard to visualize. Even while I was watching the video, I had a hard time understanding it. My apologies for not having a video clip of it. Watching Gabe Suarez do it showed me just how quickly someone could get moving from a stationary position. I like this technique, and I'd like to share it with you guys.

With my new camera, I have the capability of creating a youtube video. When I get a chance, I'll see if I can tape myself doing this and post a youtube link. That should clear things up.

#17 XRe

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 11:29 AM

If moving to the right, you kick your left leg out, plant it, and push off of it.


This is what we call "drop-step" (see the pointer to Jake's thread above). What Filishooter is describing is a bit different (the replacement step thing, where moving right, the left foot would move over to where the right foot has been). The biggest difference is the twisting action involved - it incorporates more muscles and could potentially develop more push. Different things work well in different situations, of course. I tried to do what I think Filishooter is describing, but if you're not standing fairly upright, its tough to get the trailing foot where it needs to go (a good, low, shooting stance puts your feet pretty far apart, potentially).

What we're concerned about in terms of getting moving from a static position is simply this - what gets us to the next spot the quickest. Economy of motion may or may not do that for you - drop step does put part of the body moving opposite the desired direction of travel, but (on the timer, for me) results in the fastest departure from a static position. Cross over works better/faster, if the engagement of the last targets is easy and I can take them while crossing over - otherwise, I find it a bit slower.

I'd have to see this one demonstrated so that I could properly duplicate it and evaluate it - I suspect some strengths and weaknesses, but couldn't say for sure....
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#18 Filishooter

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 11:42 AM

If I understand correctly, if moving to the right, the first step is to pull your left leg back under your body


That's the opposite of what I'm saying. If moving to the right, you kick your left leg out, plant it, and push off of it.

I can see how this is hard to visualize. Even while I was watching the video, I had a hard time understanding it. My apologies for not having a video clip of it. Watching Gabe Suarez do it showed me just how quickly someone could get moving from a stationary position. I like this technique, and I'd like to share it with you guys.

With my new camera, I have the capability of creating a youtube video. When I get a chance, I'll see if I can tape myself doing this and post a youtube link. That should clear things up.


Hey, were both talking about the same thing (Pekiti-footwork) but in different applications. We actually learn what Mr. Suerez talks about as the second phase of the footwork. In the one I am describing imagine a baseball diamond. You have the right foot on home base and the left foot on 3rd. We bring the left foot back to home while leaving our hips facing 3rd and the right foot kicks out to first, when the left foot touches down we twist into the movement clockwise. We use this to get off line quickly (defensive). If we continue the footwork drill we go into what you are describing! We launched toward first in our first movement our right foot touches down on first, our weight compresses on the right leg and loads up to spring towards 2nd base. There is still a twisting motion counter clockwise towards the line of movement. This would be our attacking angle into the opponent (offensive). Put them together and they are one side of the diamond pattern footwork. The footwork drill continues to include a forward replacement step and push-off but thats beyond this discussion!

#19 Flexmoney

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 02:38 PM

This? http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Noting that this guy is leaning back and not looking to travel.
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#20 Filishooter

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 05:59 PM

No, thats not it, thats just a positional movement (sidestep).

This? http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Noting that this guy is leaning back and not looking to travel.



#21 Flexmoney

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:27 PM

I found this on another forum. It was posted as an email that just came in from Suarez International (Gabe).

The description given sounds very much like what Jake shared with us in a recent thread (drop-step).


The Pekiti Take-Off

I spent the day today working with a group here teaching the Pekiti-Take Off (aka Drop Step) combined with an Appendix Carry Draw to get off the x during force on force.

We had a few drills a a preamble. The first thing I did was stand two men facing each other at 4 yards, airsoft gun in hand. The task was to draw and shoot the other man. No movement was allowed. We did three repetitions showing equal initiative (starting on “go"), and unequal initiative (one started and the other responded). The second drill repeated the same thing, but this time from a concealed holster carry. The results of all of this was that both men got shot. As fast as they tried to draw and shoot, unless one side missed their draw, both men got hit within milliseconds of each other.

The next drill was simple. The “good guy” was to spring off the x as soon as he saw his adversary go for the gun. The adversary had one shot to fire. Surprise! The guys were not getting shot anymore. Once this primal realization was made (stand still = getting shot, moving fast offline = not getting shot) we began refining it.

I taught them a method of getting off the X that I learned from Tom Sotis. Tom is a knife master and we have been collaborating on cross training for a while. The Pekiti-Take Off is an athletic dynamic move off the spot. The take off is more easily shown than described but I will give it a shot. As Tom explained it to me, a normal step involves fighting gravity by lifting the foot and then dropping it as you fall into step. Thus walking or running are simply controlled falling and stopping. This may be alright, but to do it faster and smoother, we can refine the action.

Think of simply falling into direction without first picking up the foot. Simply “unweight the foot” and fall into that direction. This decreases the time it takes to move off the initial line. So to do this, you drop into position by doing the following -

When you want to move to the 3:00 for example, your right foot will be moving to 3:00 as your body begins falling. At the same time, the left foot will move a couple of inches to the 9:00, or the opposite side. This drops your body out of line and sets you up nicely for a good sprint off the x. So wherever you want to move, the opposite side foot will dart out to the opposite direction a couple of inches so you can drop out of position and then sprint off the X as you shoot.

We drilled the footwork for a while and then did it force on force. The results were dramatic. Folks got off the X much faster than before...dramatically faster. Combined with an appendix carry it was amazing to see. Appendix carry will speed up your draw by 1/3 without requiring out of control speeds. It does that simply because you have less travel time to gun or target. We saw shots out before the second foot hit the ground. Its almost cheating.

The Pekiti Take Off is prevalent in the FMA systems, but this application to gunfighting is new. Its incorporation to the draw takes some coordination, but the guys in class (many with zero martial arts experience) learned it in an hour. The grip is achieved upon the initial drop step/TO, and then as you push off the back foot (loaded foot), the gun is drawn and fired. This is more easily done with an appendix rig (which many in class seem to have instantly changed to).

As I said - combined with an appendix carry rig, it is very fast and, once understood physically, is very deadly. Things that I’m finding helpful -

1). Don’t wear metrosexual Gucci loafers, or wannabe seal sandals. Something with a good grip or traction is beneficial.
2). Plyometric training is helpful in explosiveness.
3). Make sure your cover garment is large enough to clear well. I am an XL size, but wear a 2x for cover.

Another benefit is, that being from the same FMA family, the Dog Catcher and False Lead of our DLO material blends very nicely into the Pekiti Take Off footwork matrix.

Access while dynamically moving is a skill like any other and it must be learned and trained to a point of being reflexive. I am coming to the conclusion that
a controllable draw is more desirable than a fast draw. What I mean by that is that the traditional fast draw via open front cover may seem mechanically faster when standing still, but the movement may cause the garment cover to move in unpredictable ways thereby preventing the smoothness seen when the shooter is standing still. We saw this happen in force on force enough to take note of it.

A closed front shirt may seem marginally slower in standing target shooting but is much more “predictable” when moving. This seems to lead to a smoother more repeatable draw while moving. The speed is made up by traversing OODA faster, and by presenting an unpredictable and changing problem to the adversary (thereby slowing his response down), not by simply trying to draw faster against the clock. Speed is relative and I must say that this is a new way to look at speed, but I think it is more realistic than simply using a stopwatch.

Try the Pekiti-Take Off when you work your Get Off The X drills. I think you will find it a very nice addition to the skill set.

To learn the Pekiti Take-Off as it applies to gunfighting, check out our Advanced Close Range Gunfighting DVD


Thank you,

Kyle F.
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#22 kevin c

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:43 PM

Cool stuff. Thanks all for the links and pasted text.

Now, how, as a ten round shooter who needs a fresh mag at almost every shooting position, do I mesh this with reloading? A lean in the direction I want to go gives me a smooth reload within two steps (if I have my act together) but this looks so explosive I'm not sure whether a reload is compatible. Before? - kinda defeats the purpose. After, ala Grauffel? - haven't got that down yet... :wacko:

splng edt

Edited by kevin c, 24 July 2008 - 04:16 PM.

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#23 Flexmoney

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 09:44 PM

Whatever method you exit with needs to be second nature. Even if you vary the method. So, hitting the reload...would just be hitting the reload.

If your exit technique is too violent, your body should notice this and smooth the technique out...to accommodate the goal of a good reload.
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#24 Graham Smith

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 06:28 AM

FWIW, long before I started shooting competition, I was shooting Defensive Pistol. On two separate occasions, I've traveled to WV (about a 6 hr drive for me) to Practical Firearms Training. These guys mainly do law enforcement and military training, but do have some "open courses". On one day, we had two FBI agents with us "brushing up" on their skills before heading overseas. Once I started shooting competition, I didn't expect to go back, but I now see that it would be worth my time to spend another weekend there since you get a chance to do a lot of very intensive shooting of a kind that you cannot do on any public range.

We shot standing, sitting, laying, crouching, around barricades, off axis, one handed, moving, at stationary and moving targets, during daylight and at night, at distances from 1' to 35 yds.
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#25 Flexmoney

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 05:45 AM

I think the statement I use the most is "It doesnt matter what you are doing or what position you are in, it doesnt matter if you are hanging upside down and swinging from side to side. If your sights are aligned on the center mass of the target when the shot breaks, you will hit."


That sounds familar. :)

I think I often stated it as hanging up-side-down from monkey bars...and pullling the trigger with the pinkie (finger or toe).

:)
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