[hf219]

Here is my target set up. 1 steel set at 4 or 5 yards from 2 paper, paper is about a yard apart. The concept of the drill, to get me snapping my eyes from one target to the next. I first set up a drill standing static and placing 5 hits on the three targets. Then I set up a drill drawing to the steel (steel is a 12" square plate) then moving about 5 yards to the second shooting position and finishing on the two paper. Here is my question. Oh the targets are about 7 yards to 10 yards from the shooting positions. With this equation, and the paper being so close to one another, do you find yourself being able to snap your eyes ahead of your sights, or do you find yourself almost having the sights moving with your vision to the next target. Im not concentrating on overall time, splits, or transitions, as much as im trying to speed up my eye snap from one paper to the next. I did find overall that my time for the drill was roughly the same. The differnce I did see that if my splits were faster than a .27 my points suffered. I also found that if I tuned into the sights, I would over run the second target and push C and D hits on it with the second shot. My problem is that I was not purposely focusing on the sights, although it seemed even when I wasnt trying to I would still see my sights driving into the second target. When Ive run this drill with the targets set much farther apart, it was easier to snap the eyes to the target and find the sights settling into the A zone of the second target. I hope you have been able to decispher this quandry. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Flexmoney]

Harry, you might have lost me a bit with the .27 splits comment.

Do you mean transitions of .27 between targets ? (That is fast for transitions...slow for splits on the same target.)

Quote

I also found that if I tuned into the sights, I would over run the second target and push C and D hits on it with the second shot.

That is precisely the benefit of getting the eye to locate the target SPOT. If not, the gun doesn't know where to go. So, it goes to brown...and under-stops, or over-stops, the target spot.


As for the speed of the eyes to get ahead of the gun... I can tell you that, in dry-fire, my eye will lead the gun at 8-10y in just a simple transition from the body to the head of a paper target.

Live-fire can be a bit different...since you have the muzzle lift going on. On short transitions, which I call muzzle bump transitions, you can get away with riding the bouncing dot (front sight) to the next target in recoil. Your vision can often pick out the next target, since it is so close. Usually the targets need to be on the same level, and fairly evenly spaced (a plate rack is a great example).

I used to write those muzzle bump transitions off as being totally different and not "real" transitions. But, Brian put up a 3 target drill a year or two ago that I explored and found that even with those ease transitions, I was better served by getting (keeping) my vision moving to locate the exact target SPOT that I wanted the shot to hit.

[benos]

Good stuff Kyle.

If the next target is close, peripherally, to your front sight, it's easy to find the next target and get back on the front sight sight so quickly that it feels like you were on the front sight the whole time.
be

[ajg308]

I am reading Brian's book right now an am in the section where he talks about seeing. Consider this a plug for the book. So far I am soaking it up and i think you would benefit from it as well.

[hf219]

LOL, well the .27 I was talking about was actually the split not the transition. The transition was around .40. I was able to produce .18 and slower splits on each target. Although it was a little tough to see the sight lift on the second shot. I felt that when I had a faster split that my transition times were slower. My overall time was the same, I was able to call the shot and produce a better hit with the slower splits. When you said that during dry fire it was easier to get your eyes to snap ahead of the sights, Its exactly what I see as well. Thats why when during live fire I was not seeing the same thing. Your explanation about muzzle bump and riding it to the next target is probably what I experienced. It seemed like I was following the sights to the next target, but I wasnt. Their relationship to the movement of my eyes must have been what I thought I was seeing. Thanks for your help, you have no idea how many rounds I sent down range on that 5 shot drill to better understand what I was or wasnt seeing. H.

[Flexmoney]

A bit more for clarity...I'm not advocating riding the front sight on the short little muzzle bump transitions (or not doing so). I'm not suggesting what you should, or shouldn't, see...in that case. The fundamentals are:

http://www.brianenos...tml#fundamental
( ^^^^ read that, know it, then come back ^^^^ )

After you call the current shot, your next job is to locate the target SPOT. (I say target SPOT to distinguish that where you want the gun to go and hit...needs to be clearly defined in your head if you actually expect the gun to go there.)

Let the fundamentals drive your actions. Know that you will call the shot you are on, then you will locate the target SPOT that you want the gun to go to.

Be aware and observe yourself. Watch and see what happens when you actually shoot.

[hf219]

Its been quite some time since I last posted on this topic. I havent shot in several months, I started out with some dry fire a couple days before some live fire. I found that my draw stroke greatly increased, my transitions (with eye speed) greatly increased. More amazingly my splits were very consistent with or without movement. My hits were alot tighter (all A hits). My focus in reestablishing my ability (which I thought suffered from lack of shooting), simply act like I never shot a gun before, be aware of how I was performing an action (reload, draw, transition, ect.), adjust in a postive way how the action performed could be better, simple, efficient and consistent. Self doubt has contributed to my preparation for these training days. I walked away with a better self image, surprise to my new found increased ability and confidence in what I can do. These words have been spoken many times before, by others. Ive read these words many times as well. I guess its finally sunk in. Thanks Flex, Brian and the others who have contributed to my enlightenment. H!

[Dan Burwell]

hf219, on Aug 20 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

simply act like I never shot a gun before, be aware of how I was performing an action (reload, draw, transition, ect.), adjust in a postive way how the action performed could be better, simple, efficient and consistent. Self doubt has contributed to my preparation for these training days. I walked away with a better self image, surprise to my new found increased ability and confidence in what I can do.

Excellent post (for a doughnut muncher)

Does this mean I am going to see you at nationals!

[hf219]

Dan Burwell, on Aug 20 2009, 06:13 PM, said:

Excellent post (for a doughnut muncher)

Does this mean I am going to see you at nationals!

Yes Ill be at A8 and the Nats. Looking to have a good time, I remembered that shooting was fun. Its even better when you break past a mental barrier. Thanks Dan, good luck at the Nationals, Ill be looking for you. H!

[Flexmoney]

Cool.

When you are ready for it...the words make more sense.

[Jadeslade]

Yeah. I've been working at this really hard and it wouldn't come and it wouldn't come. Then about a month ago my training partner was really pushing me hard. We set up 7 targets with no shoots between them, edge to edge, at about ten yds. The no shoots were covering all but the A zone. We put one target out about 5 yds to the side both right and left so that it ended or began with a long transition. We shot it left to right and then right to left. What really helped was him standing where he could watch my eyes. He gave me instant feedback-sometimes stopping a run-"you have no idea where your bullets went". "move it" "hustle your vision". Then we broke it down to 1 shot and 1 shot-between 2 targets. That is when I really started to see the front sight lift-move eyes-gun comes in-alignment-shoot. Then we put it back together. That first run where I saw every sight lift, every sight picture, and had all A's was like a revelation. Took months and months of a lot of practice. It is perishable, of course, but once you see it-life is so much different. FYI. Lots of good info in here. I think if you can get a training partner it can really help you see what you are and are not doing.