[thock]

Hi, guys,

What size of a group do you expect to see from a custom open 9mm 1911 at 50 yards, prone or off a rest? What kind of a load would you use? I'm currently using 4.8 gr of Universal Clays, with a 115 gr Zero FMJ. I tried 4.6 gr of Vihta Vuori N330 with the same bullet, and it didn't work out so well, but I didn't have any 115 gr JHP to try.

Thanks,

Tracy

[GrantJ]

Tracy

From a custom gun I would expect nothing less than 1.5" at 50. Forget the rest, I have groups that match or better that prone. As for loads, they make a considerable difference. Adjusting the overall length, crimp, charge, primers and cases can all have an effect on the group. I have found 9mm to be a little more tolerant than other calibers for both accuracy and reliability.

GrantJ

[DougCarden]

Hi Tracy!

I would try: 4.8 - 5.0 gr VV 330, 1.120 OAL with a Hornady 115 XTP. Fed small primer or even better Fed Gold match primer. If your gun wont shoot that 1.5 or better than it is the barrel.....
FMJ will open up the group. I had good luck with the Montana Gold 115 jhp for practice loads, but the XTPs shrink down the groups, in my experience. Make sure the load is around 1150 to 1180 in your gun and it should shoot beautifully.....
See ya at the BigDawg....
DougC

[HSMITH]

+1 on the XTP, most accurate bullet I have shot in 9mm and 40 too.

[thock]

Thanks, guys!

I'm currently using CCI small pistol primers. Will a primer make that much difference? I also use mixed range brass for practice, since it's essentially free, but I separate it by headstamp for matches. I guess it's time to pony up the cash for some new Starline brass. What I was loading those two loads in was Winchester brass. I'm not sure how many times it had been loaded, since it was range brass. I have a bunch of Starline range brass, though. Would it be worth it to try that, before buying new Starline brass?

Warren got a group inside the 10 ring at 50 yards with my Para 18-9 and the Universal Clays load. He was shooting it off a rest at 50 (bigger hands, plus he's very accurate). The VV load opened up beyond that. I'm anxious to try the VV load and the Universal Clays load with JHP bullets to see what they do in the Para.

I was told that different guns like different things, so assuming my loads tighten up on the Para with a JHP bullet, will they be tight on a custom gun, too? What I'm getting at, here, is whether or not I can determine how accurate my custom gun is, when I get it, with the load get to work with the Para.

Please excuse any lack of clarity of thought. I've had WAY too much caffeine, tonight...

Grant, see you at the Cameron Cup. Doug, see you at Big Dawgs.

Tracy

[DougCarden]

Tracy, no problemo!

In my experience and a mentor that just shot 4th place at the Cup.....(way to go Kevin).......Primers do make a difference. I posted that I had groups shrink by 20% by just changing from Fed small pistol or Wolf to the Federal Gold medal small pistol. Nothing else changed, just the primer....
If you have access, just case pro your brass, Sorting by headstamp is fine for the big matches, but if you just casepro them so they are all the same you will have better groups with the cases being uniform. If the brass has only been fired in your gun the whole time no biggie, but if you dont know, Casepro.....hey....catchy lingo there....

Every gun is different, but if you have a 1/32 twist rate on your barrel, that load will shoot, period!

You may have to work loads up and find the one that works best in it, that is supposed to be half the fun, right!

See ya,
Doug......I have to see a guy about my town being flooded right now.....Argh.....

[Allgoodhits]

thock, on Jun 11 2008, 07:29 PM, said:

Hi, guys,

What size of a group do you expect to see from a custom open 9mm 1911 at 50 yards, prone or off a rest? What kind of a load would you use? I'm currently using 4.8 gr of Universal Clays, with a 115 gr Zero FMJ. I tried 4.6 gr of Vihta Vuori N330 with the same bullet, and it didn't work out so well, but I didn't have any 115 gr JHP to try.

Thanks,

Tracy

Tracy,

A decent gun should shoot a quality bullet loaded properly under 3" at 50 yds. A good gun should bring that group size down to 2" at 50 yds. A quality gun will bring that down to 1.5" at 50 yds and an exeptional gun will go below 1.5" at 50 yds.

Of course we always want a gun to shoot as good as is mechanically possible, but a whole lot of things come into play in addition to the quality of the gun and the components and the shooter's skill. Some of those are sorting and or trimming brass, weighing each bullet and weighing each powder charge.

Many find that JHP's shoot better than FMJ's. Personally I get best results in this order: Sierra 115 JHP, Hornady HAP 125's, Zero 115 JHP's and ZERO 125 JHP's. All of these will shoot less than 2" at 50 yds if assembled with quality other components with care. Powders such as W231, Hodgdon HP38, WST, Titegroup, Hodgdon CLAYS and even Bullseye should give good results, as would some other powders. I get good results running the 115's around 1090 - 1130 fps and the 125's around 1030 - 1070 fps. I prefer Federal GM primers, but regular Federal or Winchester Small Pistol are fine too.

If you are getting 1-2 bad flyers of 10 shots, then it is likely a loading issue, or shooting error not the basic load or maybe a comp issue. Using some of the powders and bullets mentioned with velocities in the range mentioned, then you should get some decent groups. All guns vary, so you may have to make minor adjustments to tune your load to your gun. Don't overlook the crimp factor. Under crimping or overcrimping can ruin an otherwise good load. If possible try some known quality factory ammo for accuracy in your gun, or someone elses ammo in your gun or your ammo in someone's gun.

You will be surprised when your shooting improves that your loads will improve and vice versa. It is in part due to becoming more skilled, but as important an increased awareness to the attention to detail in all aspects of the shooting sports.

Just don't want you to get discouraged if your gun doesn't shoot 1.5" groups for you right away. Heck the X ring is 4" and the 10 ring is 8" and the 8 ring is a foot in diameter. Just get out and shoot and have fun. Glad to see you stepping up from the .22

Martin

[thock]

DougCarden, on Jun 12 2008, 09:36 PM, said:

If you have access, just case pro your brass,

...I have to see a guy about my town being flooded right now.....Argh.....

What is case pro? I'll do a search, just haven't heard of that, yet.

I hope you don't float away!

Tracy

[thock]

Thanks for the info, Martin.

Allgoodhits, on Jun 12 2008, 10:07 PM, said:

...I prefer Federal GM primers, but regular Federal or Winchester Small Pistol are fine too.

If you are getting 1-2 bad flyers of 10 shots, then it is likely a loading issue, or shooting error not the basic load or maybe a comp issue. Using some of the powders and bullets mentioned with velocities in the range mentioned, then you should get some decent groups. All guns vary, so you may have to make minor adjustments to tune your load to your gun. Don't overlook the crimp factor. Under crimping or overcrimping can ruin an otherwise good load. If possible try some known quality factory ammo for accuracy in your gun, or someone elses ammo in your gun or your ammo in someone's gun.

...Glad to see you stepping up from the .22

Well, the shots were all over the place, with Warren shooting the gun, no real flyers, as such, just large groups. Warren's accurate with a revolver, so I can't imagine he'd be less so with a semi-auto. I've never really shot the Para seriously for accuracy. After shooting it yesterday, he said it was no wonder I was losing points when I shot that gun. I can't wait to get my new one back. Shooting the Para is like shooting a 2x4, for my hands.

I shot the Para in the 2007 Bianchi Cup for my metallic gun, and before that as an open gun. I'm still shooting the .22 at the Cup just because. :-) I'm going to make that my metallic gun, until I get one built to fit my hand. That might take a while.

Tracy

[gm iprod]

Tracy,

Try getting some loads off Grant. His machine makes good ammo. He uses one brand of brass "?" times then culls it out. If you try his ammo and it is better than yours. It might show where your ammo is going wrong. IF it is the ammo. At the same time compare some factory and see where that shoots. This way you have a base line that can be improved upon one step at a time.

Goldfieldshooter uses about 4.2gr of VVN320 in his 9mm. I have used as little as 4.0gr TG, but this load was for a long barreled open gun and it barely made 120pf. Try around 4.3gr under the 115gr.

I used a Para the same as yours (it belonged to my Sister in Law) and I think my load was 4.1gr TG using a 125gr Zero, this was very soft and grouped about 4" or 5" at 50y, the trigger was not flash on that thing and I think we fixed it and it dropped the groups by about an inch.

She used it for IPSC and was very happy with it for that.

I have always favoured faster powders and light to medium (115 to 125) JHP for 9mm for NRA. It just seems to work.

Good brass for matches and sorted brass for practice. Keeping the brass to one manufacturer per reloaded batch will help with consistancy.

[thock]

gm iprod, on Jun 13 2008, 01:56 AM, said:

Tracy,

Try getting some loads off Grant. His machine makes good ammo. He uses one brand of brass "?" times then culls it out. If you try his ammo and it is better than yours. It might show where your ammo is going wrong. IF it is the ammo. At the same time compare some factory and see where that shoots. This way you have a base line that can be improved upon one step at a time.

I did just that, yesterday. Turns out it's my ammo. I REALLY need to get my hands on some JHP bullets and get new dies.

Tracy

[DougCarden]

MG 115s shoot really well, and are reasonable in bulk. I can heartily recommend Redding dies for your reloading. I am turning out some of the best ammo I have ever done with the Redding Ti Nitride Die set. With the same headstamp brass I am getting .001 variance on OAL on cases....mucho goodo.....
Yeah, the water does suck, but we will survive it like we did in '93....

Doug

[gm iprod]

Tracy,

What press are you loading on?

If Warren will let you near his 550 get a quick change for that with the Dillon Carbide dies. That way you again have a known start point to compare.
Get the same projectiles as Grant and cull your cases, again you will be as close to what Grant is using (only because his ammo works) and then you stand a better chance of making everything work the way it should. If you have trouble getting Vihtavouri then look at either Titegroup (4.3gr - 4.6gr) or HP38 (about 5.0) they are available locally to you.

[thock]

gm iprod, on Jun 16 2008, 04:28 AM, said:

Tracy,

What press are you loading on?

If Warren will let you near his 550 get a quick change for that with the Dillon Carbide dies. That way you again have a known start point to compare.
Get the same projectiles as Grant and cull your cases, again you will be as close to what Grant is using (only because his ammo works) and then you stand a better chance of making everything work the way it should. If you have trouble getting Vihtavouri then look at either Titegroup (4.3gr - 4.6gr) or HP38 (about 5.0) they are available locally to you.

I've got a 550. Between us, we have 3. I am using RCBS dies, with the Lee factory crimp die. I am thinking hard about getting Dillon dies, except that the only problem I have is with the crimper on the Lee die, so I'm seating and crimping in the same step. That can't keep happening, I know.

Tracy

[gm iprod]

Tracy,

Buy a set of the Dillon Dies. I think your problems will disappear. At the least get a seperate crimping die, but I am sure a complete new set of dies will give you a better start point. Your chamber seems tight enough not to allow too much distortion on firing so sizing is not the major issue, but seating and crimping are critical.