108 replies to this topic

[Chris_Andersen]

I find when I get the timer involved practicing reloads things get sloppy. I can them down under a second pretty easily, but that second shot tends to go all over the place.

The speed, vs. proper technique get into my head and I tend to become all about the time vs. the shot.

My best results have come from just practicing with the gun dry, with a bunch of mags, one after the other. When I watch a couple of videos of myself in matches I have done some smoking fast reloads, and it just felt natural during the run.

I now will time a reload occasionally, but only one or two. If I rip a bunch off in a row, checking the timer over and over, everything starts to suffer. For me anyway (I tend to get a little OCD when the timer is involved).

[pjb45]

When I was traveling a lot and working in CA, I would practice my single stack reloads every night. Since I do not go to bars, it was the only thing safe thing to do while out of town. My reloads really smoothed out. I had a few people notice that my reloads did not cost me any time when moving between shooting positions.

It is a perishable skill. This past year I have not been traveling and my reloads have slipped quite a bit. I did a El Pres they other day in 5.7 seconds.

[Aldrin]

This thread makes me want to practice more.

[CHA-LEE]

If you need to rely on a sub 1 second reload in a normal field course stage then you are probably shooting the stage wrong

[jasmap]

If you need to rely on a sub 1 second reload in a normal field course stage then you are probably shooting the stage wrong

Or if it's a part (not all...just a part) of your game like Tomasie then you're shooting the stage right.

[Flexmoney]

If you need to rely on a sub 1 second reload in a normal field course stage then you are probably shooting the stage wrong

This is the skills forum.



Skills
Post or compare basic skill tests.

[Jake Di Vita]

Not to mention there have been many field courses (especially at Nats) that a 1 second reload on demand was worth about 20 match points.

You figure any reload in a stage is going to cost you a half second, so you try to plan the reload where that half second is spent doing something other than shooting anyway. Usually this is during movement, sometimes windows of movement are very small, and that load needs to be completed in one step of movement. Other times you can plan it after hitting an activator before the target presents itself. This is usually very risky as flubbing a load will either cause a miss of the target's rotation (swinger) or missing the target all together (drop-turner) - both of which are unacceptable.

Having that sub second load on demand is a critical tool in USPSA. It's practically required for being a GM, and can you imagine the advantage it would give you over other shooters in your class sub GM?

[Aristotle]

I admit that I make the reload more of my dry fire routine than probably necessary, but they are no longer static reload drills like the infamous Tomasie reload, rather they are as Jake explained, 1 step reloads where I complete the reload almost rite after I leave a position. I call them explosion drills where you have to get it down in a very limited amount of time/space.

In the few month's I've really started to use them at matches, I have had a few instances already where it has definitely helped me keep up, or stay on top of my competition.

[WDB]

Practice was .69 @ 7yds., match was something like 1.1, usually more like 1.5-1.7 but then again I HATE dry fire practice. I can usually FORCE myself to do about 20-25 reloads and I've had enough.

[Flyin40]

I admit that I make the reload more of my dry fire routine than probably necessary, but they are no longer static reload drills like the infamous Tomasie reload, rather they are as Jake explained, 1 step reloads where I complete the reload almost rite after I leave a position. I call them explosion drills where you have to get it down in a very limited amount of time/space.

In the few month's I've really started to use them at matches, I have had a few instances already where it has definitely helped me keep up, or stay on top of my competition.

Standing reloads are great to practice but moving reloads is entire different skill set. They are both the same basic reload but practing standing reloads does not translate directly into great moving reloads. Alot of work is required for both.

I had a routine when I was dryfiring. I had about 8 drills I would do in dryfire every session with moving reloads.


Flyin

[Jake Di Vita]

Standing reloads are great to practice but moving reloads is entire different skill set. They are both the same basic reload but practing standing reloads does not translate directly into great moving reloads. Alot of work is required for both.

That's interesting because it wasn't the same for me. I very rarely practiced moving reloads, but I practiced static reloads a lot. Eventually, after many months, it just got to the point where I got good enough at reloading that it was just done before I could get any head of steam up. As long as you can maintain a neutral body position regardless of what your feet are doing (even reloading while actually on the move), I'm not sure it's really any different. This obviously just gets exponentially more difficult to execute the faster you move.

[Flyin40]

Standing reloads are great to practice but moving reloads is entire different skill set. They are both the same basic reload but practing standing reloads does not translate directly into great moving reloads. Alot of work is required for both.

That's interesting because it wasn't the same for me. I very rarely practiced moving reloads, but I practiced static reloads a lot. Eventually, after many months, it just got to the point where I got good enough at reloading that it was just done before I could get any head of steam up. As long as you can maintain a neutral body position regardless of what your feet are doing (even reloading while actually on the move), I'm not sure it's really any different. This obviously just gets exponentially more difficult to execute the faster you move.

I tried it that way and it didn't work for me. I think your talking about setting up, shooting and reloading as you begin to move to the next position.
To me that is a standing reload. Maybe it is just our defintions of moving reloads that is different. I agree with you about standing reloads, or reloading out of a position by the first or second step and keeping the body neutral. When I say moving reloads I'm talking about shooting an array while moving and a reload is needed before the next array. So your already moving at a pretty good pace at the end of that array and have to do a reload while heading to the next position. So your body isn't neutral and its very hard to get it to be neutral. I had to practice those types of reloads. It didn't take much and figured out rather quickly some things I was doing wrong. I can do a standing reload and the gun stays high for the reload but as soon I was would practice moving reloads the gun would drop down about 8 inches. This was probably due to trying to use my arm to help me move and for balance. Also I had to really look the mag in, alot more than standing reloads because the gun wasn't stationary as I was already moving fast.

This obviously just gets exponetially more difficult to execute the faster you move.

This is what I'm talking about when the moving reloads being its own skill. Those reloads that are on the fly. Being able to do these type of reloads opened up options for me. If I need to reload while moving fast I know I can.

Flyin

Edited by Flyin40, 13 March 2010 - 10:43 AM.

[Jake Di Vita]

Right. I've usually found reloading at a dead run to be a loser anyway though.

People are different and we all learn skill differently. Just interesting to look at it from a few angles.

[LexTalionis]

I found this thread a few days ago and was inspired by the reload times I'm seeing posted here! Some of them are absolutely insane! Anyway, I made the following video right after reading this thread for the first time and posted it in my Range Diary. I figured I'd repost it here and submit my reload technique for analysis.






A couple quick questions:

• I'm doing my reloads on the theory that moving my gun out of position as little as possible will result in faster times. But I've seen videos of some high level shooters bringing their guns pretty close to their body and even tilting it a good bit to place the mag. To me that seems like it would be much slower. Is there a reason for this? Are there disadvantages to how I'm doing them?
• My gun (XD9) has a pretty unforgiving magwell. If I don't place the mag just right, I can easily get it caught on the lip or deflected. This results in a much slower time (see bloopers in my vid). Is there a way to specifically train around this or should I just stick with mass repetition?

Thanks!

[cyburg]

Either way you are still going to have to travel the distance. I have found out as I bring the gun back and cant it I do smoother reloads. Everything seems to just line up.

[benos]

Either way you are still going to have to travel the distance. I have found out as I bring the gun back and cant it I do smoother reloads. Everything seems to just line up.

Same for me. With the gun a slightly closer to my and canted slightly, I'd get a more consistent mag insert.
be

[CHA-LEE]

Dry fire with weighted mags (mags loaded with dummy rounds). A full weight mag and gun will feel a lot different than doing it empty.

Also keep in mind that if you can't perform the same times in live fire you are sacrificing something critical in dry fire. For example, you were doing an El Presidente in less than 5 seconds. Can you do the same thing in live fire while obtaining 95% of the points? If not then you are not accounting for or completely skipping some processes in the shooting during your dry fire. Being able to turn, point the gun at some targets and mash the trigger 6 times isn't a usefull skill to practice unless you can do the same thing in live fire and actually hit what you are shooting at.

Just keep in mind that everyone can have rock star reload or draw times in dry fire. Don't get lulled into chasing a super speedy dry fire time while sacrificing important fundamentals.

[Sandro]

At what distance are we talking about here for 0.7x-0.8x reloads!?

Comfortable at 7.

old treat I guess, but good stuff. when you all say sub 1 I thought wow that is really good. Now I just saw this post from Jake, I guess I need another 3 years of dry fire to get to 0.70 reload all day...

[joecichlid]

Just keep in mind that everyone can have rock star reload or draw times in dry fire. Don't get lulled into chasing a super speedy dry fire time while sacrificing important fundamentals.

Very well stated.

Joe W.

[LexTalionis]

Same for me. With the gun a slightly closer to my and canted slightly, I'd get a more consistent mag insert.
be

Thanks. I'll try that. Maybe it will help with my consistency.

Dry fire with weighted mags (mags loaded with dummy rounds). A full weight mag and gun will feel a lot different than doing it empty.

Also keep in mind that if you can't perform the same times in live fire you are sacrificing something critical in dry fire. For example, you were doing an El Presidente in less than 5 seconds. Can you do the same thing in live fire while obtaining 95% of the points? If not then you are not accounting for or completely skipping some processes in the shooting during your dry fire. Being able to turn, point the gun at some targets and mash the trigger 6 times isn't a usefull skill to practice unless you can do the same thing in live fire and actually hit what you are shooting at.

Just keep in mind that everyone can have rock star reload or draw times in dry fire. Don't get lulled into chasing a super speedy dry fire time while sacrificing important fundamentals.

Thanks for the advice! My mags are already weighted. I made dummy rounds with the bullets I shoot (minus the powder and primer) to replicate the feel of shooting live.

When I'm dry firing, I move as fast as I can while focusing on letting my vision dictate what I do. So for those El Prez's, I really have no idea how fast I can do them live since I haven't tried them. I do know, though, that I'm pressing the trigger twice (although probably at unrealistic split times) including full travel for trigger reset while my sights are aligned in the A zone. And that I'm flicking my eyes to the next target for the transitions. If my vision can't keep up with all the above and I get sloppy, then I know the time is too fast for me and I slow it down. I'm sure that I'm probably missing something, but that's all I know to do right now.

Should I pull the trigger slower to try to replicate live fire? Or should I imagine the shot going off and seeing my sights rise and fall? Any help you can give is much appreciated!

Edited by LexTalionis, 26 October 2010 - 08:18 AM.

[Jake Di Vita]

Being able to turn, point the gun at some targets and mash the trigger 6 times isn't a usefull skill to practice unless you can do the same thing in live fire and actually hit what you are shooting at.

I completely disagree. Doing what you suggest is bad is the only way I ever got close to the sub 3 El Prez. You have to push the envelope faster in practice. You have to "shoot" faster than you can see if you ever want to get better. This is called threshold training, and it's the most natural thing in the world to do.

You cannot learn what it takes to shoot fast by shooting at a slow or comfortable pace.

A few years ago a good buddy of mine expressed some interested in pistol shooting. So I invited him to my house, strapped my rig and gun on him, and showed him the basics of grip and stance then the process of reloading. This was maybe the 2nd or 3rd time in his life that he ever handled a pistol. After he got the basic steps down, I made him speed it up more and more while watching to make sure the gross motor movement was still correct all the way through. Within 20 minutes, he was beating a 1 second par time 6/10 times. Not bad for a newbie huh? If I had instructed him to "get 95% of the points" (and the mentality that goes along with that - which is awesome for match shooting, but not for practice), we would have had completely different results.

Now if you take this philosphy to someone who is a seasoned shooter who practices religiously, that person will get a hell of a lot more out of his practice time than the dude trying to shoot within his capabilities over and over and over.

If my vision can't keep up with all the above and I get sloppy, then I know the time is too fast for me and I slow it down.

Lex,

If your vision can't keep up with your hands then you need to keep doing what you are doing until your vision can keep up with your hands. Then repeat that process. By slowing down, you eliminate any reason for your body to adapt (get better). Remember that training works because the adaptation you recieve is your body's response to the stress placed on it. No stress, no improvement.

[Sean Gaines]

Being able to turn, point the gun at some targets and mash the trigger 6 times isn't a usefull skill to practice unless you can do the same thing in live fire and actually hit what you are shooting at.

I completely disagree. Doing what you suggest is bad is the only way I ever got close to the sub 3 El Prez. You have to push the envelope faster in practice. You have to "shoot" faster than you can see if you ever want to get better. This is called threshold training, and it's the most natural thing in the world to do.

You cannot learn what it takes to shoot fast by shooting at a slow or comfortable pace.

A few years ago a good buddy of mine expressed some interested in pistol shooting. So I invited him to my house, strapped my rig and gun on him, and showed him the basics of grip and stance then the process of reloading. This was maybe the 2nd or 3rd time in his life that he ever handled a pistol. After he got the basic steps down, I made him speed it up more and more while watching to make sure the gross motor movement was still correct all the way through. Within 20 minutes, he was beating a 1 second par time 6/10 times. Not bad for a newbie huh? If I had instructed him to "get 95% of the points" (and the mentality that goes along with that - which is awesome for match shooting, but not for practice), we would have had completely different results.

Now if you take this philosphy to someone who is a seasoned shooter who practices religiously, that person will get a hell of a lot more out of his practice time than the dude trying to shoot within his capabilities over and over and over.

If my vision can't keep up with all the above and I get sloppy, then I know the time is too fast for me and I slow it down.

Lex,

If your vision can't keep up with your hands then you need to keep doing what you are doing until your vision can keep up with your hands. Then repeat that process. By slowing down, you eliminate any reason for your body to adapt (get better). Remember that training works because the adaptation you recieve is your body's response to the stress placed on it. No stress, no improvement.

Jake, where have you been? lol, of course no disagreement here! If you try to hit a homerun, you don't aim for the fence you aim for the car in the parking lot behind the fence. Always push yourself, you will not gain anything by shooting at your comfort zone in practice. Think of lifting weights, if your max is 200lbs you need to push it 210lbs, and try, if not you will never see gains. Keep pushing and pushing, then your threshold keeps getting pushed higher and higher.

[Jake Di Vita]

Oh I've been around. Working hard and training hard.

The analogy towards lifting is exactly right. If you can squat 200 x 5, but you train by squatting 150 x 3...your squat isn't going to get any better.

[lugnut]

Love this stuff. I'm curious about the concerns/possibilities of shooting a match the way you train. I fully agree with Jake's analogies and methods to get faster... however I do find that when it comes to match time many times I shoot as I practice... fast and not seeing enough. Is there a good way to become more disciplined so this stuff doesn't happen in matches? I have a tough time "regulating" my performances in these situations...

[LexTalionis]

Thanks, Jake! That's what I've been doing. I crank my dry fire speeds to the point where I can barely control them. Then I spend a week or two at that speed and let my control catch up to it. I know for a fact that this has helped me improve a lot. This is good for me because I have neither the time nor money to live fire much.