[abs]

What is the feeling out there of allowing shootthroughs at a major match or for that matter ANY match. I sometimes see shooters, some more than others (who will remain anonyomous) do this without lifting a finger to help. Also does it impact the integretiy of the match in that if forces the rest of the shooters to wait? Thanks for the replies..

[JFlowers]

It depends on the situation. Its not unusual at the local matches around here for the Match Director and Stats person to shoot through. No issue there, you figure they have enough to do. Sometimes at big matches you have Jrs shoot through because they have school commitments. Every shoot through is different and we have to rely on the good judgement of the Match Director at major matches to make sure that the reasons are justifiable.

I don't get overly conerned about lack of "work" from shoot throughs, you figure one day it will be you in that situation.

[EZ Bagger]

It can affect the "integrity" of the match, especially on a day where the weather conditions change dramatically. You also have a shooter or shooters that don't have to deal with the fatigue of being out there all day, brassing, taping, etc.

All things considered, it doesn't bother me too much. Especially if it helps to get some of the bigger names at the match. Not like they're going to be there to claim a prize....

[abs]

I guess I should qualify it a little. Big names that come in for the purpose of claiming a prize and then catching the first available flight so they can hit two or three big matches in a short period of time.

[BritinUSA]

My 2 cents; If there is a legitimate reason for requesting a shoot-through, ie. work, family issues, medical etc. and the Match Organisers are notified in advance then I don't see a problem with it.

Getting a shoot-through to attend another match does not qualify (at least in my opinion).

[Rob Boudrie]

Quote

Getting a shoot-through to attend another match does not qualify (at least in my opinion).

I believe that the key here is to make the service equally available to all regardless of who they are. If you can accommodate a big name with a shoot through so he can make it to a second match - great, as long as your no-name C class shooter who wants to shoot the same two matches is afforded the same courtesy.

[Merlin Orr]

I was just about ready to post something .. then I read what Rob posted.

+ 1 to Mr. Boudrie's statement. It makes sense. It's fair and equitable.

[AikiDale]

Rob Boudrie, on Apr 21 2008, 10:08 PM, said:

Quote

Getting a shoot-through to attend another match does not qualify (at least in my opinion).

I believe that the key here is to make the service equally available to all regardless of who they are. If you can accommodate a big name with a shoot through so he can make it to a second match - great, as long as your no-name C class shooter who wants to shoot the same two matches is afforded the same courtesy.

That makes 3 of us. Rob gets it right again. Rob, you should think about running a match.

[Turbo23]

In the case that you are describing Abs.. I must admit that it did bother me some. Due to the fact that it was not an EMERGENCY.

Also.. like stated above, in this case the weather did change alot and the waiting time was huge later in the match. They were able to

have a chance at getting in some grove going and we did not. By a long shot.

Just my .02 man.. Thanks again for the mags!!

[Flexmoney]

abs, on Apr 21 2008, 09:32 PM, said:

I guess I should qualify it a little. Big names that come in for the purpose of claiming a prize and then catching the first available flight so they can hit two or three big matches in a short period of time.

...come in for the purpose of claiming a prize...

For the purpose of claiming a prize? Did the shooter tell you that was the his purpose, or did you come up with that? I guess I am a bit skeptical on the expense, effort, drain on resources (etc.) being worth it if the purpose is to claim a prize.

[Joe4d]

Well let's drop the prize part. I think it is the perception that certain people are privileged or getting special treatment. one or two shoot throughs like the score keeper or MD other than that if you dont have time to shoot the match don't shoot. I see the privileged abused way too often. To the point I see the same people match after match getting shoot throughs. Dealing with the environment all day is part of the match. It's pretty frustrating to be the on deck shooter and ready to go only to get bumped bumped and more bumped by wandering up shoot throughs.

[EricBudd]

We have some shooters that will shoot though a local match because of family/work considerations and as the Match Director I don't have a problem with that. Of course, the guys who need a shoot though also either coem early to help with setup or stay till the bitter end when everything is put away. I guess my standard is that I have no problem accomidating the guys who go above and beyond to help month in and month out. That is just the right thing to do. I'm less inclined to that that for non-emergencies for guys who just shoot-and scoot.

[SA Friday]

Joe4d, on Apr 22 2008, 06:17 AM, said:

Well let's drop the prize part. I think it is the perception that certain people are privileged or getting special treatment. one or two shoot throughs like the score keeper or MD other than that if you dont have time to shoot the match don't shoot. I see the privileged abused way too often. To the point I see the same people match after match getting shoot throughs. Dealing with the environment all day is part of the match. It's pretty frustrating to be the on deck shooter and ready to go only to get bumped bumped and more bumped by wandering up shoot throughs.

Joe, not to contradict your input at all, but I think this might be a secondary problem to the original question. Once the shoot-through has been granted by the MD, there are different ways to deal with the individual as they work through the stages. In the past I have polled the regular shooters if it will bother them to insert a shoot-through in a specific spot before inserting their score card. That way the person on deck and the person in-the-hole don't get out of rythem. If we are doing our walk through, the shoot-through shoots first. They want to go down a couple, too bad for them... If we are almost done with the squad, the shoot-through goes last, again, too bad.

I think Rob B's input to the original question is a good way to look at resolving the issue. Shoot-throughts are pretty common in CO. Interestingly enough, shoot-throughs over here in Area 8 (MD, VA, PA areas of it at least) seem pretty rare. I can't recall seeing one in the last year. Then again, there are so many shooters at some of these matches that a monthly club match is the same size as the RM300 or Mile-High (this is no BS). So, there is less familiarity with every shooter at a match for the MD. After a year, I think I know about half of the regular shooters in this area. In CO, everyone knows everyone for the most part. That makes the request to shoot-through easier for the shooter and harder for the MD to say no. It puts it on a more personal level.

For a major match, this might be something that needs to be addressed up front on the registration form. Something like shoot-through requests a month in advance and only after MD approval. Then you can address the issue privately long before the match. If they show up and make the request... you have more firm ground to politely request them to make a decision, shoot what they can and leave when necessary or redo their schedule.

[dajarrel]

There will always be shoot throughs. Usually, you never know why only that they are there in your shooting rotation. If they help paste/reset the stage while they are there I usually don't have too much heartburn over it. But it does irk me to watch someone come up, have the RO read the stage briefing to him and let him walk through it, then shoot and leave. It just doesn't seem fair to all the other shooters.

JMHO, FWIW

dj

[Flexmoney]

dajarrel, on Apr 22 2008, 12:05 PM, said:

If they help paste/reset the stage while they are there I usually don't have too much heartburn over it. But it does irk me to watch someone come up, have the RO read the stage briefing to him and let him walk through it, then shoot and leave.

I think that is the very nature of what a shoot-through is, isn't it? If they were sticking around to work the stage, then they wouldn't be saving any time.

As it is, the shooter has to get their gear reset..and their mind reset...before heading off to the next stage.


Weather...could go either way.

Getting in a groove...could go either way.

It's a whole new set of challenges to shoot right through. I haven't found it to be a competitive advantage at all. I know that last year, where I was Match Director for the Ohio Section Match, I was able to squad up for about 5 stages. I then went to shoot through on the other 4. The first thing I did was forget to go SHO after a reload on one of the classifiers. Zero'ed the stage.


For major matches that are scheduled on the same weekend...how many are going to be able to make the travel to do that? I hear off a few cases of people doing that. I don't see that as a big deal. More power to them.

I've seen shoot-through passes for Juniors to be able to go to the Nationals. That is cool. I've seen where storms have hit "back home" and a shoot-through was granted. And, at my first Nationals..Sept. of 2001...flights were delayed and competitors shoot through to get caught up.

There have only been a few cases of shooting through that I have seen while I've been around Major matches.

Local matches...we hardly ever see it.


I've never seen it abused. As long as there is a legit reason, and it isn't a regular thing...I'd rather see a shooter get to shoot the match.

[Joe4d]

Well SAFriday, I agree I havent seen it at all in Midatlantic area this year. But in the previous local I shot it was often excessive. To the point of 10-20% of the shooters. I do agree with the way you mentioned handling it. If they show up with the squad they shoot first. If the squad has started firing they shoot last.
Flex. We have had similar threads where posters discussed whether or not shoot through is an advantage or not I dont think that part is relevant. I do think the experience is different and should be minimized. But I am seeing a trend here seems in many areas it isnt abused or over used if used at all so most people dont mind the occasional special occasion. Keep in mind that in other areas like where I started shooting and probably the original poster the shoot throughs have gotten out of hand.

[JKSNIPER]

Was at a match a while ago when the match organizer came to the group and asked if we could hold up a bit to allow a shootthrough.
Everyones sitting there and a bunch of guys were bitching and moaning about it especially since the guy doing the shootthrough is not there yet when.....
here he comes....in his wheelchair making his way as best as he can as fast as he can.
He gets there and manages to stand up (shakily) and fire his weapon with the fingers he has left on his damaged hands.
He sits back down obviously making a big effort physically just to do that particular stage.
He then proceeds to the next stage but not until after thanking everyone for their courtesy and allowing him to shootthrough.
I had not been one of the guys verbally expressing my displeasure at having to wait but I must admit to some unkind thoughts before I saw this guy.
Heck we were all thinking that we were being held up for some V.I. P. type that just can't wait because he/shes just too damm important to mix with us lowlifes.
Boy were we wrong.
Must have been some pretty embarassed guys there because you could have heard a pin drop after that.
I remember thinking "there but for the grace of God..... "
I no longer think of those pauses as an inconvenience but as a time to reflect on my own blessings as a shooter and as a human being.
Maybe use the time to stratigize the course out better and who knows the shootthrough may have helped improve scores in the long run.
JK

[scirocco38s]

I also run the monthly match at my club and there are 3 people who get shoot thrus if needed. The scorekeeper if he wants to shoot the match, the scorekeepres assistant(whoever that is that match) and myself if the attendance is high and I need to be running around helping keep the match running. Sometimes a shooter will ask to shoot his last 2 stages as a shoot thru because the match is running long and he needs to go to work. For the most everyone stays together in their squads but occassionally it happens and most people ask if the can shoot first to get going or ask the next squads permission. It is handled for the most without incident and is appreciated. I had a shooter from 9 hours away ask if he could finish his last 3 stages shooting thru, so he could get on down the road, and I allowed it, no one complained about it and when someone asked why I told them the reason and they said that it was a good reason and it was a dead issue. I dont see this as a big issue, for major matches I agree with flex in that it could work for or against the shooter.

[kimel]

Shoot through passes have their place but they should be rare...say less than 1% of the registered attendance.

As a stage CRO I will NOT hold up another squad to accommodate a shoot through with solo walk-through and all that stuff except for emergency situations. Just jump in with the next squad, grab some pasters or paint and get busy.

Now if we are sitting there bored and waiting for the next squad that just started shooting next door then yeah, come on in and let's do something rather than sit here being bored.

I often have seen shoot thru's just climb in with a squad and shoot/work through with them for a few stages. That is definitely my preferred mode as match staff and what I have done when doing the shoot through gig.

And don't try and BS your way through as a shoot through. If you don't have the proper badge, note from the MD, or whatever that match is using then go shoot with your squad. I don't care that you were hung over this morning and missed my stage when your squad shot. Go get permission or take a zero.

For true emergencies like TJ had a few years ago when a hurricane slammed his home during Nats and he had to get home...hell, I'll stay late or get there early to run you.

[Ron Ankeny]

Hey abs:

Lemme guess...someone rode by on a fast horse, blasted and dashed because they figured one of your guns was a cinch? Am I close? FWIW, that would really suck.

My personal opinion is shoot throughs should be reserved for match staff and emergency situations. I also agree if the MD allows a non-emergency shoot through for Mr. GM they need to show the same treatment to the other shooters.

Quote

I've never seen it abused.

Neither have I. Betcha abs has...

This post has been edited by Ron Ankeny: 03 May 2008 - 12:43 PM

[abs]

Howdy, Ron. Yup, you are close. Fast horse, grab the $$$$ and head to an Area match.

[Tom Freeman]

Shoot throughs should be reserved for match staff and emergencies.

Showing up, shooting through, and then heading out to catch another match isnt cool.

So many matches, so little time. Pick one and be respectful of those around you.

[Flexmoney]

Ron Ankeny, on May 3 2008, 03:40 PM, said:

Hey abs:

Lemme guess...someone rode by on a fast horse, blasted and dashed because they figured one of your guns was a cinch? Am I close? FWIW, that would really suck.

My personal opinion is shoot throughs should be reserved for match staff and emergency situations. I also agree if the MD allows a non-emergency shoot through for Mr. GM they need to show the same treatment to the other shooters.

Quote

I've never seen it abused.

Neither have I. Betcha abs has...

Since you quoted me...

I have another take on that, but I don't think I can post it on the forum.


Let me see if I can tip-toe around this without causing a mess...

Nah...never mind.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

In case anyone out there is hiding under a rock and hasn't figured it out yet - all you have to do is read the USPSA press releases from a couple weeks back.

My 2 cents on shoot-throughs
Always OK for match staff or in the case of emergency.
Probably not OK so you can catch a flight to shoot another major match (or two).
Definitely not OK if the same opportunity isn't afforded to everyone else, regardless of class or name recognition.

[Jim Norman]

We allow a very limited number of shoot-throughs. Medical reasons, ie recovery is not complete and a full day is just too much, but when you used to be 100% you gave 150% and likely will again. You are a regular worker and need for family, job, whatever to get out early.

Match Staff on occasion also, but usually we just shift the essential peole to 1st-3rd up on their last stage and tehy can then scoot off to handle overseeing the beginning of tear-down.

If you are ever the receipient of a shoot through, you should be gracious, and you should thenk everyone, NEVER cut the current shooter or the on-deck, Always drop down to allow the guy that just got his game on to actually shoot. Then step in. Say THANK YOU.

Did I mention, SAY THANK YOU?


Jim