[Pat Harrison]

I'm noticing a trend, not just in IPSC but all around the shooting community, that I think is having a negative effect on gaining new shooters.
Quite often we see posts that lament the lack of new people coming into the sport or not sticking around. But have you listened to what we are telling them?
How many times have you heard someone list the equipment needed to a new shooter that you know is way over their head?
On the range the other day I heard a fairly senior RO explaining to a new shooter the type of gun and gear he should buy "to save money in the long run"
It included an S_I gun, top end, holster etc...becuse thats what he would end up with eventually, so he might as well start there.
Whatever happened to "Use the gun you have or buy something simple (Glock), get a cheap holster and pouches and come out and have some fun!"
How discouraging do you think it is to a newbie investigating the sport to be told he has to spend thousands of dollars on a gun and gear "to save money?"
I see it with rifle shooting to, after posting a similar thread as this:
http://www.brianenos...?...st&p=735956
on another forum, I got a few responses telling me how I had to upgrade all my loading gear and spend much more time loading in order to be competitive. I responded that I was just trying to find a decent load to work with my stock rifle and mid range scope, and the response I got back was less than encouraging. I took it as :"If you don't do this, you are wasting your time."
How about we think about how we talk to new shooters to get them out, instead of trying to outfit them as a Grandmaster for their first day? Do you supply your kids with University texts on their first day of Kindergarten because they will eventually need them anyways?

[CDRODA396]

Spot on!

Every new shooter that shows up to the range has the potential to be a life long advocate of our sport, and its OUR INVESTMENT in THEM, especially in the early days of their interest in the sport that determines whether they disappear to never be heard from again, or continue to join us in our sport...we should work towards facilitating their learning curve, and let them worry about if they'll be competitive or not...some of us are here for the fun of it, comraderie, etc....winning is a by-product of that fun....sometimes! But its never the sole motivation or I'd be really, really disappointed ALOT!!!

This post has been edited by CDRODA396: 12 April 2008 - 09:28 AM

[jhgtyre]

I agree 100%. Too many guys go into long lists of the top notch equipment when most shooters could, and probably should just buy a Glock or CZ (or whatever) and get started. Figuring out what you need as you go is part of the learning process and the primary reason that most of us run gear that is different from the next guys.

-ld

[betterment]

CDRODA396, on Apr 12 2008, 12:26 PM, said:

Spot on!

Every new shooter that shows up to the range has the potential to be a life long advocate of our sport, and its OUR INVESTMENT in THEM, especially in the early days of their interest in the sport that determines whether they disappear to never be heard from again, or continue to join us in our sport...we should work towards facilitating their learning curve, and let them worry about if they'll be competitive or not...some of us are here for the fun of it, comraderie, etc....winning is a by-product of that fun....sometimes! But its never the sole motivation or I'd be really, really disappointed ALOT!!!

+1
I got involved in the sport after I already bought a HK USP 40. Since then I have made it work but would like to upgrade when I can. There is a lot to be said about shooting for fun, we often talk about winning but through numerous types of mind sets we forget that there is only one "winner". The unknown victories are the time spent with fellow shooters doing something we enjoy.

[wooddog]

+2

I started with a Colt commander and a Sig 239.
Once the "bug bites you" the rest just falls into place and anyone who really gets into it will seek all the gear they can afford or muster. Thats the other part of the fun of this... there can be no end to what we may "need next"

[JThompson]

That does happen, but I don't see it a lot locally... we always tell potentials to bring what they have, or we offer to let them use some of our rigs. You will find elitist snobs in any sport, our people are better than most, but we still get some of that. If you hear it don't be afraid to pull the shooter aside and tell them ALL the options, not just the ones that cost mega bucks.

[dajarrel]

Pat,
You are absolutely right. We have, at our small club, spent a lot of time over the last couple of years trying to bring in new folks. We have learned that you ask what kind of gun they have and how many mags they have got and if they have a holster. If they don't have what they need, we supply it. Heck, for the first match or so, we usually provide the ammo. We work hard to tell the new guys that they can run what they brung if it is safe.

It does indeed chap my behind to hear an "experienced" shooter telling a new guy to go out and buy a $2000 gun plus accessories so they can play.


FWIW

dj

[Slabbie Shooter]

i'm happy to hear this! I'm about 4 months into IPSC and it was scary for me at first. One thing I noticed is that the C B and A shooters (read: cool kids), spent most of their time sucking up to the Ms and GMs, and us poor Us and Ds were on our own a lot. Sometimes we got advice but it really rattled me at first that i was hearing shooting advice during my run. That made me shoot worse. I guess the old dogs forgot what it's like for the scared pups.

It's getting better for me now, as i am making friends and learning more and more, but being approachable will do wonders for the newcomers to this sport.

[North]

+1

We need to think like the drug dealers. The "production" guns (Glock,XD,1911,etc) are the Gateway guns. Get the new folks started with USPSA with the gateway guns, and then before you know it the addiction has taken hold and they are forking over the kids college money on that super cool open/limited rig.

We may need a surgeon generals warning if we get too many folks addicted, just add it to the written stage briefing.

[snertley]

+2 We need to encourage the new shooters the best we can. And no they dont need to spent their next to months paychecks on gear to play the game. Run what the brung are words I live by. Some times the more experinced shooters like to give their advice to the brand new shooters, which is fine, but let them learn the game first. Our last match I think my son ( who has been shooting less than a year) had 4 different people tell him he should be topping off when he loads to make ready for production. I just tell them I know about that and just let him walk before he runs. Soon enough he will be kicking my butt. My intent is to have him learn the fundimentantals first.

[dcarter]

I tell anyone who will listen that they can start with the simplest of gear. I started out using my duty gear. I also tell them before going out and spending a lot of money on gear, to ask questions to other shooters. Find out what works and what doesn't and what is best for them. So when they go out and buy stuff they won't have to go out and buy different stuff to replace the stuff that didn't work or just wasn't needed.

[Jman]

True. And thankfully not much of that is happening at club level here. Over the years I have spotted many "WORLDWIDE INTER-WEB" experts expounding on the equipment not to waste your money on. Willing to bet that 51% or more of these web ninjas have never shot competitively.

Jim M

[AustinMike]

I've heard new shooters get told that they need to plan on getting into Open because it will help their shooting, be more competitive, blah, blah. That's like telling someone with a learner's permit they need to get into a top fuel dragster. Geez, I hate hearing that. As long as they brought a good production legal gun, let them shoot the damn thing! It may have a terrible trigger, bad sights, or whatever, but it's what they have. Mastering that terrible trigger might be the best thing they can do to improve their shooting skills. There is absolutely no reason to have to spend thousands right off the bat on a fancy gun to participate in our sport. I was at a match yesterday (steel match actually) and there were some grumblings about a slow squad. The squad had one 6 shot 38 revolver shooter with no speed loaders and another first time shooter with I think a 22 revolver. It slowed things up a bit with them having to reload. I think it's cool to see guns like that out there though. Let 'em shoot what they brought and show a little patience and consideration. We all started somewhere and for most of us it wasn't with a $4000 open gun in our hands. If the bug bites and the new shooter wants to buy into open or whatever, let it be their choice. We shouldn't be making people to feel that if they don't have a custom built limited or open gun strapped on that they are some pathetic loser. I've settled into Glocks myself after shooting a few years. Damn, I still have people that try to pressure me to shoot Open (tried it, didn't like it) or to get rid of the plastic gun and get a 1911 (got one o' those) or whatever. Occassionaly, I'll shoot a revolver for a change of pace, which is a huge anomaly around here. Then it's, "I can't believe you're shooting that, are you crazy? None of the stages are revolver friendly, blah, blah." I shoot the guns I enjoy shooting. We sometimes forget this is Practical shooting. All some people want is practice with their carry gun or just to shoot as hobby without breaking the bank.

[gotm4]

Great thread.

I agree that Production should be the starting point for many new USPSA shooters. Some new shooters I notice want to get into USPSA but then don't want to shoot Production because of the 10 round mag limit. They don't want to have to reload a lot. I don't blame them neither did I when I started so I went from Production to Limited then back (I now shoot Limited/Production and SingleStack). I think that Production mag capacity should be whatever the factory mags capacity is and should require factory made mags...i.e. SIG 226 (15 rounds), Glock 17 (17 rounds), Beretta 92 (15 rounds) and M&P9 (17 rounds). I think this would encourage using 9mm and would really help grow the sport. Sure there will be a few gamer guns like the CZ SP01 but it wouldn't really be that big of a disadvantage since it would also be DA/SA.

This post has been edited by gotm4: 13 April 2008 - 07:52 AM

[ChuckS]

Morning folks,

Some good stuff here but it brought to mind the Hate Forum guidelines:

"• Hate rants involving shooters, firearms, or shooting related manufacturers, such as but not limited to - IPSC, IDPA, USPSA, the NRA, or Match Directors - are NOT PERMITTED.

• If your hate rant has to do with shooting then it needs to be directed towards yourself.

• In general - The Hate Forum is not for venting about anything to do with anyone or thing that hits close to home here. Please keep that in mind when posting in the Hate Forum."

Later,
Chuck

[mwx40x40]

Production, SS, and Revo should be the new shooters friend. Once hooked and if all the other stuff (Ltd & Open) turns them on and thier finances allow, then go for it.
We always encourage new shooters to bring what they have and if it's not adequate , we even try to loan them whatever they need.

[kgunz11]

Pat Harrison, on Apr 12 2008, 11:51 AM, said:

I'm noticing a trend, not just in IPSC but all around the shooting community, that I think is having a negative effect on gaining new shooters.
Quite often we see posts that lament the lack of new people coming into the sport or not sticking around. But have you listened to what we are telling them?
How many times have you heard someone list the equipment needed to a new shooter that you know is way over their head?
On the range the other day I heard a fairly senior RO explaining to a new shooter the type of gun and gear he should buy "to save money in the long run"
It included an S_I gun, top end, holster etc...becuse thats what he would end up with eventually, so he might as well start there.
Whatever happened to "Use the gun you have or buy something simple (Glock), get a cheap holster and pouches and come out and have some fun!"
How discouraging do you think it is to a newbie investigating the sport to be told he has to spend thousands of dollars on a gun and gear "to save money?"
I see it with rifle shooting to, after posting a similar thread as this:
http://www.brianenos...?...st&p=735956
on another forum, I got a few responses telling me how I had to upgrade all my loading gear and spend much more time loading in order to be competitive. I responded that I was just trying to find a decent load to work with my stock rifle and mid range scope, and the response I got back was less than encouraging. I took it as :"If you don't do this, you are wasting your time."
How about we think about how we talk to new shooters to get them out, instead of trying to outfit them as a Grandmaster for their first day? Do you supply your kids with University texts on their first day of Kindergarten because they will eventually need them anyways?

Pat, "that other forum", is full of that mindset. It always comes from those who have spent years in the sport and look back on it like "I should have listened to those other guys and bought this to begin with". Some places/people have a way of really discouraging a new guy. On some boards, if you don't have a USO or Schmitt & Bender scope, you're not worthy of an opinion. If you're not shooting a custom rifle from one of the top names, you're not worthy of an opinion. If you are not LE or military, you're not worthy of an opinion. If you don't qualify under any of the other categories and shoot well in a competition, you're not liked because you go against everything they stand for.
I agree with you in that my mindset is while we might not all have the very best equipment available, we should learn to proficiently use what we DO have. Is a FFP scope a requirement? No, but some places will tell you it is. Ask Terry Cross if his SFP Nightforce has ever stopped him from stomping the competition at a match! I've owned every piece of gear there is. Sometimes it's just plain better to keep it simple. The important thing is that you buy GOOD gear, and not JUNK, but sometimes that gets lost in the shuffle. There is good gear outside of USO and S&B, and plenty of bad gear as well. Can you imagine a place where a Leupold MK IV is the bottom of the totem pole? There are such places on the internet. And those places are full of people that RARELY shoot and when they do shoot it's 300 yards or less.
If you really want to know the ins and out of working up a load, go ask some people that keep it practical. Dan Newberry has a site where you can ask questions and get real answers without getting beat up at the same time.
http://practicalrifler.6.forumer.com/
This thread might be of some interest to you:
http://practicalrifl...topic.php?t=730
or even this one:
http://practicalrifl...topic.php?t=633

There are places out there to get solid data without the BS, and there are places to get the data where you have to siphon thru the BS to get the good stuff. Even better is the range, it's where you get to find out for yourself what really works. A lot of people on the net post second hand information that they don't know for themselves to be true. Some places are full of sheeple.

[Pat Harrison]

I think you are refering to Snipershide forums which I have not had too much of a problem with, there are some individuals that come across with that attitude, but they are usually matched by someone more reasonable. The one I was refering to is a Canadian site, but more it is the general attitude at ranges, competitions etc. where the individual may think he/she is helping by giving information on the best gear, but it can be damn intimidating. Some of it dates back to when I worked in gunshops and would try to recommend newbies start out with something inexpensive that they can build on...like the Colt 1991...remember when they were inexpensive? It was a great gun to start someone into IPSC and then they could add the modifications they felt suited themselves. Yet there would always be some yahoo (eg store owner...who didn't shoot much) tell the newbie to buy a Gold Cup or high end gun to start...in his case he was just trying to make money, not be helpful, which is why I no longer work in a gun shop...which serves only to turn a new guy/gal away from shooting sports.

[kgunz11]

Pat Harrison, on Apr 13 2008, 11:54 AM, said:

I think you are refering to Snipershide forums which I have not had too much of a problem with, there are some individuals that come across with that attitude, but they are usually matched by someone more reasonable. The one I was refering to is a Canadian site, but more it is the general attitude at ranges, competitions etc. where the individual may think he/she is helping by giving information on the best gear, but it can be damn intimidating. Some of it dates back to when I worked in gunshops and would try to recommend newbies start out with something inexpensive that they can build on...like the Colt 1991...remember when they were inexpensive? It was a great gun to start someone into IPSC and then they could add the modifications they felt suited themselves. Yet there would always be some yahoo (eg store owner...who didn't shoot much) tell the newbie to buy a Gold Cup or high end gun to start...in his case he was just trying to make money, not be helpful, which is why I no longer work in a gun shop...which serves only to turn a new guy/gal away from shooting sports.

Does the shop owner make more on a Gold Cup than a standard model? I know the Gold cup costs more, but usually profit margins are the same unless there is a "supply and demand" factor. I could recommend a Gold Cup to someone new if there wasn't an opportunity for them to upgrade a base model pistol. If you know you're going to or even think you might want to upgrade, why not just get the Gold Cup to begin with? It's not like they don't hold value well. Depending on the situation, I could easily recommend a well rounded weapon over a base model, and money has nothing to do with it.

[Pat Harrison]

Well this is getting off topic but it's not a matter of more profit, only that it is a 'big ticket' item, I could sell 2 1991's and it's still the same money. Gold cups are not ideal to build on for an IPSC gun, but nothing wrong with starting there. I'm not a big fan of the wide trigger and the less than robust sights, it is a good out of the box bullseye/NRA target pistol, but I think something like a 1991 is a better starting point and since you'd end up doing the same custom work to both...why not start with the less expensive gun? The Gold cup has nothing on it that would make it better for action shooting than a base model.

[kgunz11]

Pat Harrison, on Apr 13 2008, 03:01 PM, said:

Well this is getting off topic but it's not a matter of more profit, only that it is a 'big ticket' item, I could sell 2 1991's and it's still the same money. Gold cups are not ideal to build on for an IPSC gun, but nothing wrong with starting there. I'm not a big fan of the wide trigger and the less than robust sights, it is a good out of the box bullseye/NRA target pistol, but I think something like a 1991 is a better starting point and since you'd end up doing the same custom work to both...why not start with the less expensive gun? The Gold cup has nothing on it that would make it better for action shooting than a base model.

Gotcha. When I was looking for a base pistol to build up I chose the Springfield 1911 A-1. It's also a good platform. When I got finished I would have been better off buying the loaded model. 1911 smiths aren't that cheap.

Sorry for the thread drift.

[Woody Allen]

No, I disagree. I did not hear enough about what to buy, what to start with.

Guns with heavy triggers, lousy sights, crummy gear makes it difficult and much less of an enjoyable experience, and less shooter retention.

Every time I hear "it is not the gun but the shooter" ad nauseum I want to vomit. The draw of this sport is the competition. As soon as possible, get competitive equipment. It is painful to watch a new shooter struggle with his or her 12lb trigger and factory sights.

Buy nothing, use what you have, but as soon as possible get competitive equipment, i.e., used Edge in 40, G17/G34 with new sights and Vanek drop in, or any 5" 1911 with a trigger job, magwell and sights. Get rid of the crappy equipment as soon as possible, and you will enjoy the experience much more and you will be hooked. Note-getting a 650 will finance all future purchases.

I wish the above would be posted at every club match and given to every new shooter. In a perfect world we would have baseline competitive gear for rent for every new shooter to try out. Remember seeing the sparkle in the eyes and the sh*t eating grin of a new shooter once they shoot a stage with decent equipment versus what they brought. That sparkle and grin is the same as that first toke on the crack pipe----addiction-they are hooked!!!

Telling a new shooter with the 12lb trigger and factory sights "it's not the arrow its the indian" is just WRONG. They will not truly enjoy the sport until they have appropriate equipment.

This post has been edited by Woody Allen: 14 April 2008 - 05:17 AM

[dajarrel]

I think we are all in the same boat here about the guns. My "run what you brung" comment was to keep from discouraging a newbie when they show up the first time. It doesn't do him any good to put a "decent" rig on him, let him shoot and then send him home with his 'less than desirable' gun setup. Let him learn to shoot with what he has, then start with the improvements.

I agree on the used Edge or 17/34 or 1911 platforms. I think that is what Pat Harrison was talking about in the original post. Folks at the match telling the newbie that they have to have high dollar gun that has been sent to one of the custom gunmakers with a $2500-3500 price tag. These are fine guns, but they aren't what the entry level shooter needs. The list of guns you gave with the exception of the Edge maybe, can be had with kydex holster and mag pouches and mags usually for less than $1000.

I shot a S&W model 59 for the first 6-8 months of this game until I decided that I was truly hooked then moved up to a G17 and then G34 before buying my first STI about two years in. There were planty of high-dollar guns around, but I was still so tickled just to be shooting that I didn't notice.

FWIW

dj

[BBoyle]

I have heard people say the same things to new(er) shooters but not as much since the adoption of production division. I use to hear it as well when I was shooting limited with a P14. People would tell me that I needed a 40 to be competitive and that I would be better off with a S_I. I still stuck around and I still shoot that para (my only limited gun) and do not feel at a disadvantage outside of capacity on a stage here or there.

There are always going to be gear snobs. Do you know how many Corvette owners out there that do not know how to drive? I mean really drive a road course or a 1/4 mile. The answer is most of them.

[AustinMike]

I'm not trying to bash anyone here or speak negatively about a sport I love. This is meant only as constructive criticism. I don't like seeing new shooters come out and get steered immediately toward high dollar equipment. Spending money on expensive gear is not necessarily going to equate to shooter satisfaction. The shooters that want to upgrade and that have the financial resources to do so probably will on their own. We can share our thoughts on equipment with them, let them shoot our stuff, etc., it's just the pressuring I sometimes hear that bothers me. I just groan when I hear a new shooter with a perfectly good stock gun that they really should consider getting into open or get an expensive limited rig because it will help their shooting and make the game more fun. That may or may not be true. I just think it's wrong to suggest that their equipment is inferior and they "need" a better blaster right off the bat. No, I'm not talking about some total POS gun that jams every other shot and has a 15# trigger. The trigger can be cleaned up on any good production gun and sights can be changed out easily. Limited division can be entered relatively inexpensively with some modifications to many common production type guns. To suggest that someone HAS to spend lots of money to enjoy the sport or become a better shooter is just silly, IMO.