[wooddog]

Just a bug as the season gets started... There are always a group of shooters that do almost all the work in each club. When they go to other clubs to shoot, its a given that they should be able to just show up shoot and scoot. (at least in my mind) They deserve the break.
Then there are those people who seem to have no "home club" that just

[wooddog]

just seem to never help out and bitch about stage design, etc. Perhaps you know what I mean?
Guess I just wanted to put that out there.

[titandriver]

Hmmmmm.....never heard that one before!

[JThompson]

Nope. That's a new one on me... never seen that before.

[HSMITH]

Charge more for those that will not help out by giving the helping people a discount to normal match fees.

[mjbine]

At our club, we don't charge people who help setup, teardown, and RO. We give a discount if you do one or two of the three. This helps a little but we always need more shooters to get involved. Time constraints are hard to deal with. We have a lot of shooters that live more than an hour away.

[dajarrel]

Our club is small. We have 19 members at the last counting. about 8 or 9 of us are at the range early to set up for each of our twice-a-month matches. We have a few that come in and shoot right at the start of the match but unless something is going on, we very seldom have anyone just pack up and leave after the match. Actually, we will usually be tearing down completed stages while others are shooting the current one. We also have several folks with long drives to shoot.

I can understand your dilema, but.... I choose to look at it like this. I'm going to shoot on match day, so I'm going to set up stages that are a challenge to me and the friends that are there. If we can have a few others that want to help, that's great. But the point is that I'm setting up for myself.

If I didn't get to shoot because I was setting up or had to RO, I would probably see it in a different light, but right now, although I'm a bit harried by getting registration done and the classifier set up, I get to shoot every stage.

Ain't life Grand

In all fairness, I have seen matches run just as you describe it. Two or three folks set everything up, 15-20 come in to shoot and leave and the same two or three have to tear it down. It's sad that it's that way.

FWIW

dj

[vluc]

edit

This post has been edited by vluc: 28 March 2008 - 12:38 PM

[Flexmoney]

You gott ask for the help. You have to make it so people want to help. You have to show them how to help. Let them know that help is appreciated. Let them know that help is needed.

Thanks them for the help.

[warpspeed]

This sound familiar .......... http://www.brianenos...showtopic=62166


woodog - did you not like the answers in your first thread ?

[MichiganShootist]

Flex is right - - - wow did I really type that:)

At the shooters meeting before the match... ASK FOR HELP. I shoot at at least 6 clubs on a regular basis... and those that ask for help receive it. Those that "expect it" end up dragging poppers off the range in the dark without help.

We have lots of clubs in my state who run both morning and afternoon shifts..... The guys that get up early get to duck the tear down:(

I haven't figured out how to "fix" that yet.

[scirocco38s]

mjbine, on Mar 28 2008, 10:10 AM, said:

At our club, we don't charge people who help setup, teardown, and RO. We give a discount if you do one or two of the three. This helps a little but we always need more shooters to get involved. Time constraints are hard to deal with. We have a lot of shooters that live more than an hour away.

I have a small corp of people(5-8) that help me set up the match. We typically setup friday afternoo between 1-5 most times it takes less. We setup 7 stages including a classifier that I pick. 1 of our stages utilizes a permanently maounted plate rack in the bay in some form. the other 5 are what I create or steal and modify from other stages on the net. We set the entire match up minus targets. Saturday morning the only thing to do is to staple the targets in place and set out timers pasters and clipboards. During walkthru I explain stages and requirement for stages, Who starts on what stage and when thru shooting their last stage that they are to take the satge down and pile the parts up in piles so we can come by with a trailer and stack up the materials to return them to the sheds. It typically takes about 10 minutes to tear down and be finished. Typically from last shot fired to everthing put away to scores being shown is 20 minutes. These matches are large matches (85 or more competitors). I understand that people that travel 3 hrs or more to shoot the match want to shoot and scoot, and when I travel to their matches if I am under a time constraint I do it and dont think twice of it. I have also noticed that most of those individuals help more than their fair share during the match roing and scoring/pasting. For me it all washes out.

[Punkin Chunker]

scirocco38s, on Mar 28 2008, 04:47 PM, said:

. . . . when thru shooting their last stage that they are to take the satge down . . . .

We do the same thing here. We usually run 5 bays, 5 squads, and the squad tears down the stage they finish on.

What's funny is watching people squad up. Since Squad 1 always starts on Bay 1, they tear down Bay 5.

Since Bay 4 always has the classifier, and the other 4 stages typically have a lot of poppers and/or barriers, people pile into Squad 5, until it has a list with twice the number of shooters than the other squads, 'cause they know they'll finish with Bay 4, and just a few stands and boxes.

I've suggested just rolling the dice for which squad starts where.

Quote

I have also noticed that most of those individuals help more than their fair share during the match roing and scoring/pasting. For me it all washes out.

I try to be one of the people who help, and try to stay positive, but man -- somedays . . . I get irritated on the last stage when each time I come back uprange after scoring and/or pasting, a few more of the finished shooters have just dribbled away, even after the shooters' brief that asks shooters to help knock down and stow their last stage.

I've heard of one range that gives a DNF to people who split without helping, but I haven't actually heard it in a shooters' briefing, and don't know how you could wash it through the rule book.

Anyone else heard of that?

This post has been edited by Punkin Chunker: 29 March 2008 - 03:48 AM

[NMBOpen]

Our matches are scored at the range, but scores are not posted until everything is put away. We usually have more stages than squads, so I'll go to one of the empty bays and tear down when I'v shot my last stage of the day, so it's ready for the trailer when it comes around.

[Ron Ankeny]

Quote

When they go to other clubs to shoot, its a given that they should be able to just show up shoot and scoot. (at least in my mind) They deserve the break.

In my mind, they deserve a break at home. They (that would be me) need to help out when ever they can where ever...

[NickJ]

Punkin Chunker, on Mar 28 2008, 02:33 PM, said:

scirocco38s, on Mar 28 2008, 04:47 PM, said:

. . . . when thru shooting their last stage that they are to take the satge down . . . .

I've heard of one range that gives a DNF to people who split without helping, but I haven't actually heard it in a shooters' briefing, and don't know how you could wash it through the rule book.

Unsportsmanlike conduct covers it well, I think.

[Nik Habicht]

NickJ, on Jan 14 2009, 09:35 PM, said:

Punkin Chunker, on Mar 28 2008, 02:33 PM, said:

scirocco38s, on Mar 28 2008, 04:47 PM, said:

. . . . when thru shooting their last stage that they are to take the satge down . . . .

I've heard of one range that gives a DNF to people who split without helping, but I haven't actually heard it in a shooters' briefing, and don't know how you could wash it through the rule book.

Unsportsmanlike conduct covers it well, I think.

Actually it doesn't......

I've spent a fair number of days as a frustrated match director during set-up and tear-down (usually on inclement weather days) but that would be a really good way to actually kill a match.....

[shootingchef]

I get so frustrated, after every match I say "never again," then I am back at it the following month.

We ask for MD volunteers. Biggest problem is that at the end of the day, there are not many around to help store the gear. We have a core group of 2 or 3 that help, but the rest are shoot and scoots. We have tried discounts, freebies, nothing seems to work and i am afraid our club is going to die off. After three years of set ups and teardowns, I am getting tired. Some fresh ideas would certainly be welcome.

[Putty]

I have been, recently, out there as the only one re-setting steel and taping targets. I walked up to our group and asked them if they would please help with re-setting the stage. They just suddenly had a keen interest in their shooting bags. If the unsportsmanlike conduct is not enforced, then find that squad to shoot with that is pro-active. I will not shoot at a certain club for this very reason. Reduced the angst immeasurably.

[kwrangln]

This may not be the input you are looking for, but maybe it is.

I'm a complete newbie with very limited experience at matches. In that limited experience, there was none of the behavior being discussed in the thread so far. At the few matches I've attended and shot, people have literally been tripping over each other to paste targets, you had to be quick in order to use more than 3-4 pasters per stage. If someone had to leave early, it was between stages when they could get everyone's attention and say good evening, see ya next week.

Call it old fashioned, but being there I felt the need to help out even though I barely knew what went where. Afterall, these people were taking time away from their match to help me out and answer my questions, helping out is the least I could do.

I have experienced the behavior being discussed in several other hobbies through the years, it will happen over time, and believe it or not it happens only if it is allowed to. It starts with one person being busy with whatever while others are working, simple enough, only one guy. Next its a conversation, and you have two guys not helping. Stay on top of it, let it be known that resetting the stage comes first, the quicker it gets done, the quicker the next person can shoot.

It's easy to get jaded, hobbies can wear on you just like work can, and when it's more work than fun, it's no longer a hobby. If you are more worn out doing what you enjoy than you are after a day at work, maybe it's time for a break. I've got a very expensive jeep sitting in my driveway that hasn't moved under it's own power in 3 years now for that very reason, it got to be more work than fun, so its waiting for me to get motivated again and start enjoying the hobby instead of viewing it as a chore.

If it's eating at you and wearing you down, it may very well be time to reevaluate what you are getting out of the sport.

[NickJ]

Putty, on Jan 14 2009, 11:42 PM, said:

I have been, recently, out there as the only one re-setting steel and taping targets. I walked up to our group and asked them if they would please help with re-setting the stage. They just suddenly had a keen interest in their shooting bags. If the unsportsmanlike conduct is not enforced, then find that squad to shoot with that is pro-active. I will not shoot at a certain club for this very reason. Reduced the angst immeasurably.

I'm surprised. Every club around here designates tapers/brassers as each new shooter comes to the line- A is the shooter, B's on deck, C & D tape, F brass, or however many are required.

[Rocket35]

NickJ, on Jan 15 2009, 06:28 AM, said:

Putty, on Jan 14 2009, 11:42 PM, said:

I have been, recently, out there as the only one re-setting steel and taping targets. I walked up to our group and asked them if they would please help with re-setting the stage. They just suddenly had a keen interest in their shooting bags. If the unsportsmanlike conduct is not enforced, then find that squad to shoot with that is pro-active. I will not shoot at a certain club for this very reason. Reduced the angst immeasurably.

I'm surprised. Every club around here designates tapers/brassers as each new shooter comes to the line- A is the shooter, B's on deck, C & D tape, F brass, or however many are required.

That is a nice way of doing things. There will always be those that help and those that do not. And it seems as though nothing will change that, incentives or not. It is the nature of dealing with human beings. I make it a point to personally at least help with set-up or tear down. Until recently, I have had to work on match days so I had to leave as soon as I was done shooting. But I always made it a point to show up early and help set-up on those days and always help RO, tape, score and brass...

[Jeff686]

We pay an extra $3 per shooter to handle teardown. Money well spent, in my opinion. I have back trouble, and don't want to tear down, and feel guilty when I lot others do it.

The money goes to locals for teardown. I think we had the Boy Scouts, 4H, and some other groups for a while...

[Rob D]

There's a match I go to where I help tear down every single match, and there's a couple that I often can't help tear down. I can rarely help setup because of the distance I have to drive to the matches, but I'm always willing to help tear down. At the club where I can tear down every month, they start teardown immediately after the match ends and everybody works until it's done. At the ones where I often cant, most of the time they wait 30 minutes to an hour after most everybody is done shooting to tear down. It's usually because guys showed up late and are still finishing. I'm not trying to shuck responsibility and I really want to help, but if I have to work the night after a match, I can't hang around for an hour, then tear down, THEN drive an hour or two home so I can go to work.

Let me know if I'm being an ass about this, but I feel like if you're going to let people show up late (sometimes hours) and still shoot the whole match, you can't expect everyone to stay late and wait for those shooters to finish before teardown starts.

EDIT: I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to weasel out of work here. I generally try to grab the heaviest thing I can find and carry it off when tearing down. My limitations are strictly from time. If most of the groups finish shooting at 2pm and I have to be at work at 4pm, I can help tear down if we get started at 2pm, but if we wait until 2:30 I don't have time to get home and get to work.

I should probably just get out of bed a couple hours earlier and help with setup so I don't feel guilty walking away.

This post has been edited by Rob D: 15 January 2009 - 10:17 AM

[mleeber]

NickJ that is a great idea!!! Double, Triple and quad hole shooters paste and set steel. That way everyone helps out and it will keep the hole guys from getting in the way of the on deck shooter's walk thru. I often RO or Score (it is amazing how many people run from the scoresheets) at one of the local matches and have noticed that people peel off as they finish. It is not uncommon for the squad to be 1/3 its original size when it is time to tear down the bay. Even during the match we have those that decide to go next door and chit chat rather than help paste.