[badchad]

Not sure what forum to post this in but I wanted to know if anyone out there did subgun competitions for which we could compare notes. I shoot my subgun (Lage M11/9) weekly with my limited gun in a club competition and I’m looking to increase my speed in preparation for the state match near the end of the year.

I’m looking to increase speed of my mag changes, and rather than using my 3gungear drop leg mag pouches, I figured I’d make a belt rig with a double alpha belt and some CR speed mag pouches, which will fit the with the STI inserts and a little extra plastic added. The mags will be on the long side but not much longer than my friend’s big stick for his SV, but I’m not sure if they will be secure on stages that require a lot of running. Just looking to see what other guys are doing. One of the top shooters keeps his spare mags in a vest, but given I compete with a handgun already going from the belt would likely be faster for me.

Also curious what others have noted has helped in training as compared to handgun or other multi-gun matches.

[hk_mtbr]

I've been shooting subgun matches for a while with my MP5. Well, really I started the first couple years shooting buddy's MP5 then got the bug and got one of my own. We shoot twice a year at Knob Creek and then rifle where allowed.

As far as mags, it depends on the round count of course. Knob Creek is one course of fire with several stages (or other way around) Basically when buzzer goes off you shoot until done...or out of ammo. I sometimes start with beta-mag so there is 100 rounds. It varies but you (I) need 150 + and IIRC the last one was 200+...I'm not very good compared to the "real" sub gun guys...I drive a mouse all day, I'm not out protecting/serving.

I also use drop legs, blackhawk 3 mags each. And sometimes an over the shoulder that is blackhawk 4 mag.

You only get one run and I don't plan on running out of ammo, so I carry as much as I can. I've seen the look on people's face when that happens and it is not pretty.

A sort of funny cross over issue that I've found since starting to shoot practical pistol, is how I carry my mags. I carry them "backwards"...bullets to the rear. This is mainly because my MP5 mags are long and curved so they are easier to grab when oriented rearward. So that is the way I started carrying pistol mags. Everyone tells me they are wrong...and all the pros do it the other way but I don't want to change bullet orientation...they work for me and reloads are the least of my issues in matches.

I haven't done a 3gun match at all so I can't help there. I would like to try one but it hasn't worked out.

Mag change speed...practice.

One thing that helped greatly was taking a course. The one I took was MP5 specific ( www.hkpro.com ) but we did a lot of failure/transition drills as well.

I would like to see pics of your rig if you get the mags on the belt working.

Joel

[hitman]

Try a Kydex double mag holder or 2 and a mag clamp.

With my MP5 or M16 (9) I can carry 4 mags on my belt and 2 more clamped, thats 200 rounds if need be.

If you dont need that many you can easily dump on pouch to save weight.

There is also a new mag pouch out for production that looks like it will work well, cant remember the name.

A belt set up will help with reloads as your hand should end up more centered on the mag instead of at the bottom but the best way
to speed up mag changes is practice.

[StealthyBlagga]

I also shoot a Lage MAX-11 in our local subgun matches, and in our 3-gun matches as a fun gun on hoser stages after I am done with my AR15. I use a cheap multi-cell ballistic nylon belt pouch set, and it works VERY well. I bought the rig for cheap at a gun show (like $30) and just added some external elastic loops to increase retention. Here is a photo (beofre I added the elastic):



The key is to put the mags in the pouch "backwards", that is with the bullets facing back (instead of forwards, as with a pistol mag), so as to present the mags in a more natural way. When reloading, I first turn the gun towards the horizontal and pull the empty mag out, activating the extended heel-of-grip mag release with my weak hand thumb, and actively sling the empty mag away. My hand then continues to move towards the fresh mag, at which point I grab the new mag with my little finger towards the baseplate (if this makes sense), pull from the pouch, twist and insert. This is very smooth. Here is some video of the reloads in action: Video


HTH

This post has been edited by StealthyBlagga: 18 March 2008 - 09:16 PM

[hk_mtbr]

StealthyBlagga, on Mar 18 2008, 11:12 PM, said:

The key is to put the mags in the pouch "backwards", that is with the bullets facing back (instead of forwards, as with a pistol mag),


HTH

So I guess I'm not crazy afterall.

I'll see if I can dig up a photo of my rig too.

[badchad]

StealthyBlagga, on Mar 18 2008, 09:12 PM, said:

The key is to put the mags in the pouch "backwards", that is with the bullets facing back (instead of forwards, as with a pistol mag), so as to present the mags in a more natural way.

That's how I have the mags placed now, but I'm rethinking that. Because once it made me flip my pistol mag around backwards when I ran it after a subgun. It was on a long transition from box to box so it didn't hurt me but it got me thinking about consistency. Also I did a search on this forum and about half the rifle 3 gunners keep their mags bullets forward to be consistent with their pistol practice. However bullets facing back does seem more natural, at least coming from my leg pouches.

[StealthyBlagga]

Yup. it may need some practice. For me, the transition came easy, even though I've been shooting IPSC pistol for nearly 25 years. For 3-gun I use the bullets-back orientation for my AR15 mags and a bullets-forward orientation for my pistol mags. I don't seem to have a problem with grabbing the mags the wrong way. Maybe its just the way my brain is wired ?

[hitman]

For me it comes down to how I grip the mag.

Pistol and M16 (223) mags I grab the bottom finger on the front so they face forward, for HK & M16- 9s I grap the mag more in the middle so they face backwards.

[Garrett]

I reload the same with a subgun as I do with a handgun.

I had tried the pistol mag holders, but had limited success. The mags are too long, and can fall out, especially when running. Or they just work themselves out as seen here.



I ended up buying a sheet of Kydex and making my own mag holders. They're ugly, but functional. I set them up on my belt in the front, just like I do with pistol mags. I ended up making a set for 9mm mags, and another set for .45 mags.

[Garrett]

Oh yeah - here's a video. Not that the reloads are all that fast, but you get the idea of the technique - just like a pistol.

[vipertech]

I'm a big fan of the Mp5 paddle mag release with clamped together 30 rd mags. seems pretty fast. Faster than clamped mag in an Ar-15.

[ken hebert]

Don't know how it matters to this discussion, but later this year I will be running a sub gun match at my range. Plan to set it up just like a USPSA match, IPSc metric targets and steel lates and poppers. For this I think full auto or burst will be a hindrance. I don't persoanlly have a FA, but rather a 9mm AR SBR. I start with a 32 round in the gun and spares on my belt in CR Speed carriers, but clamped down, facing backwards.

[hk_mtbr]

ken hebert, on Jul 17 2008, 09:44 PM, said:

Don't know how it matters to this discussion, but later this year I will be running a sub gun match at my range. Plan to set it up just like a USPSA match, IPSc metric targets and steel lates and poppers. For this I think full auto or burst will be a hindrance. I don't persoanlly have a FA, but rather a 9mm AR SBR. I start with a 32 round in the gun and spares on my belt in CR Speed carriers, but clamped down, facing backwards.

Thanks for the info Ken. Be sure to keep us posted on dates etc. We have rifle side matches after uspsa matches and they are very cool to do after shooting the COF with your pistol.

I've never traveled too far with mine but I'm sure there are plenty in TX...

Good luck