[SteveHarris]

As everybody knows the cost of shot has skyrocked in recent times. I've reloaded for many years but there dosen't seem to be as much to save as in the past. My question is about Estate target loads. I know they are owned by Federal but don't use the same components. I haven't been able to find and published reviews so these are my questions for anyone who has personally tested on a pateren board etc.

How well to the Estate 12ga target loads pattern on a patterern board ?
How clean do they burn ?
Are the powder and primers damaging to the bore ?
Are they as good as AA or STS loads.

Also, I have always liked paper hulls. Does anyone know where to get great price for Federal paper hull loads?

BTW Here are some very good prices for 12ga target loads and components: http://www.larryssg....mmo%20page.html

This post has been edited by SteveHarris: 20 January 2008 - 01:08 PM

[EricW]

If you are shooting a break-open, buy a pallet of 1oz #8 Estates and don't look back. Fed papers are what you shoot when you're sponsored by Federal. They are insanely expensive, a bitch to get, and it's hard to believe that they would be twice as good as Estates.

And no, the cheapies aren't "as good as" AA or STS. However, unless you're headed to the European FITASC Championships, you probably don't need the performance that those shells are delivering. In fact, you can't even buy the hot FITASC shell in the states anyway (hot #7's) so don't worry about since it's a non-option.

And yeah, I know that everybody's in a lather over ammo prices, but they will come back down. Lead prices are on the decline and the market is highly competitive. *Somebody* is going to pass on the savings to the consumer. There are just too many players for it not to happen.

[Irishlad]

I've shot Estate shells and they "seem" good to me. Never patterned them, but even if I said they were great...that would only be for my gun...not yours.

I didn't notice that they were "dirty" and they won't hurt your bore in any fashion.

They are not as good as the STS, AA in so far as hull quality and reloading, and probably their "shot" is not quite as hard as the "premium". That's a guess, because there are no real "standards" that I'm aware that dictate "chilled, magnum, extra-hard" shot. Same "name" but the amount of antimony can vary...which is what makes the shot "harder", etc.

So, if it were me, I'd shoot the Estate at skeet, 16 yard trap and targets under 30-35 yards and go with "premium" over 30-35 yards and/or if you drop shot charge. Meaning, if you were to shoot 7/8oz rather than 1 1/8, I'd lean towards extra hard shot. Fewer pellets and you want them to fly properly.

One advantage to reloading, depending on component costs in your area, is you can load known "premium" quality shells close to "promo" loads costs...depends on what sport you shoot the most and how much time you have to reload.

[Doggorloader]

I belong to a pretty active sporting clays club. We have two level 1 instructors and at least 6 master class shooters as members and visiting thru weekly shooting and leagues at least a dozen more master class shooters.

Guess what, not a one shoots any AA or STS or Nitro rounds. They all shoot Estates, Remington Promos or whatever is on sale. They all routinely break way over 40/50.

IMHO it's the knowlege of the targets and the ability to apply and repeat the learned skills in varying conditions and target presentations that matters, not the price of your ammo. The less you spend on shells the more you can practice and the more consistant you will get.

Estates work just fine in 1 oz and the Remington game loads at $3.98/box at Dick's now work even better cause they are cheaper. I buy equal amounts of #8 for close in type targets and 7 1/2 for the longer targets. Even if I think that matters it's worth the trouble in the habit!

Oh....and my average is over 40.

Tom

[Middle Man]

Give RIO a try. Very high quality components from Spain. Much cleaner to shoot than the box store, loss leader promo loads that leave gray soot everywhere.

[SteveHarris]

Middle Man, on Jan 21 2008, 01:23 PM, said:

Give RIO a try. Very high quality components from Spain. Much cleaner to shoot than the box store, loss leader promo loads that leave gray soot everywhere.

I checked out Rio's web page and I see they have a distributor in TX (who was out of town). Where can you get a good deal on RIOs? Rio was new to me but the web site was very interesting.

[DBeck77]

What EricW said, I shot sporting clays competitively here in Florida for about 6 years in what was one of the busiest areas of the country for the sport. Very few shooters used the premium loads, the Fiocchi, Estates, RIO, and various other brands ruled when reloads were not used. Unless your shooting FITASC or very long sporting clays targets 1 oz of 8s is plenty of mojo for most clay birds. I did see people who switched to 7.5s and sometimes 9s for short stuff but I always reloaded magnum shot 8s and shot them everywhere. Most of the time a miss is not attributable to the shell but to the shooter.

I shot the same thing for skeet and trap when I shot those games. In skeet I tended to load 9s because the shots are so short, but I never could tell a difference in my scores with either one.

David

[Middle Man]

SteveHarris, on Jan 21 2008, 03:08 PM, said:

Middle Man, on Jan 21 2008, 01:23 PM, said:

Give RIO a try. Very high quality components from Spain. Much cleaner to shoot than the box store, loss leader promo loads that leave gray soot everywhere.

I checked out Rio's web page and I see they have a distributor in TX (who was out of town). Where can you get a good deal on RIOs? Rio was new to me but the web site was very interesting.

Shipping costs are a major factor in shotshells. There is a wholesaler in Texas (Hill Country) that should be able to ship Rio to Arizona retailers/clays ranges without too much trouble.

We've shot quite a bit of Rio over the past year in sporting clays and 3gun matches and have been pleased with the results.

This post has been edited by Middle Man: 21 January 2008 - 02:49 PM

[wide45]

I got 1 flat of RIO's last year, and don't think I will ever buy them again. They break clays just fine, but so does everything else.

Dirtier than Estates, or Gun Club. Only shells I have seen that won't always chamber enough for the bottom barrel to fire.

I may have got the worst case of shells they ever made, but they are the worst shells I've ever had.

[Bret Heidkamp]

If you really care about breaking clays, you guys will want to check out this awesome program:

Shotgun Insight

Basically, you can snap a digital photo of your pattern(s) and the program does the calculations. Plus, it will even show you holes where a clay will slip through the pattern. It works best with about 10-12 pattern prints and it will keep the averages for you.

It's all about what shoots in YOUR shotgun...and if you can get a cheap shell to pattern, so much the better.

I have to admit I never wanted to count pellet holes. Thankfully this program exists. There is no way in h*ll that I would do this otherwise, and if it does nothing else it at least helps remove doubt about your pattern.

[EricW]

Here's my take on shells/patterns/chokes

1. All shot patterns are random. Those patterns are governed by the Gaussian distribution. I'm seriously considering pulling a James Randi and offering a cash prize for the first person who can theoretically and empirically demonstrate that a standard clays load used in a standard shotgun does anything *but* emit pellets that are Normally distributed.

2. "Hole(s)" in your pattern mean that your pattern is suffering from poor density, thus your choke is not tight enough...or...if you are already at max. constriction, you need to use improved ammo to tighten the pattern beyond what Full is giving you with the el cheapo ammo.

2.01a The above condition generally occurs around 30 to 45 yards.

2.5 Patterns can also be tightened via overboring, extended forcing cones, and other mechanical means.

2.6 Belief that any of the above will eliminate "holes" is completely illusory. "Holes" is something that we are externally applying to the results of a random statistical process. There are no holes. There are only patterns that are not dense enough to do the job.

4. A "hole" in your pattern will generally only cause a miss on a dead straight-away target. All other targets are passing transversely through the shot string. This makes pattern "holes" far less important than they are made out to be, as the target inevitably will pass from a "hole" to a denser region as it transits the shot string.

5. 99.999% of targets are missed because they are missed due to user error, not because they flew through a hole in your pattern.

6. Cheap ammo will break targets virtually indistinguishably from high-zoot ammo...right until you hit the range where "Full" isn't "full" enough.

7. The use of high-antimony shot is a leftover from the days of yesteryear when the only chokes were fixed chokes, forcing cones were nasty short, and barrels were all at nominal diameter in order to provide strength with old-school steels. It was the only effective way of tightening your pattern with a fixed IC or Mod choke short of sending the barrel to the gunsmith.

Today, we just screw in a tighter choke and forget about it. It's a $20-$50 problem that saves $30/flat in ammo costs.

Some of these are my opinions. The gaussian distribution is as solid as a fact as thermodynamics and gravity. I'll be shooting cheap ammo...until it is either unreliable...or Full simply isn't full enough. Then I'll buy up.

FWIW...

This post has been edited by EricW: 21 January 2008 - 09:44 PM

[Bret Heidkamp]

Eric, nice review, and I'm not trying to get into an argument here. Just trying to share what has worked for me.

Let me just say I'm getting at one of the goals of patterning for me - to see if most pellets are being tossed to a particular quarter of the circle. I have seen this happen, and it's consistently weird. What causes it? Heck, I don't know. I do know changing wads or shells can make a difference. Maybe it's that a normal distribution would depend on reliable components. If the wad allows pellets to deform and turn into frisbees, resulting in flyers, this would result in inconsistent distributions, right? If the shot is soft, same thing. It would just make the bell curve a bit flatter and give some randomness to the pattern weighting results.

Patterning a shotgun with whatever factory load(s) may give a shooter some insight. 30-45 yards is the long end of most shots in sporting clays, and much longer than skeet and most trap shots. You'd have to be at the back fence in handicap trap to see those distances. I've done all my patterns at 25 yards and it seems to be a good average distance.

The program I linked is cool because it will show you the actual mathematical center of your shot. I'm rifle shooting the patterning samples, with a marked center of the target. The program does the painful number crunching to count the # of pellets in a 30" circle, the distribution, the true center, and how many pellet holes are in each quad. You can do as many targets as you want, and average them inside the program. It's pretty cool. I would never do this with the old manual method. The "true center" is pretty important for me, and to have a program just tell you that in a matter of seconds from a digital picture is awesome.

Most of the top competitive local shotgunners that I know have done some pattern testing. Again, maybe it's just for confidence in the equipment.

That being said, the one important thing I've found more than patterning is the impact board. It is really important to know where your shotgun is hitting. (For anyone not familiar with it, it is done usually at 16 yards or so, for an IC choke. You want to see if the main center point of the pattern is where you are looking. Differences mean an adjustment to the cheekpiece. This has given me the most benefit - knowing my pattern is 50/50 above/below and pointing out if it is left or right of my aim point is critical, IMO).

However, I love those long crossing shots in sporting clays where you can practically count to 3 before the bird breaks. Anyone coming to this area I'll be happy to shoot clays with you.

[Hank Ellis]

+1 EricW. I agonized over patterns, shot, chokes, shells, etc in my trapshooting. Wasted effort.

It hit home when two events occured. I was given two guns that were sunk in Katrina. One was a H&R Topper 16ga crack barrel. It was a pile of rust and since I can get a good one for $150 why waste the effort on it. Gave it to a co-worker who wanted a snake gun for his camp. He cleaned it up, got it to function, and loaned it back to me to take to the range just for the hell of it. Looking down the barrel it had the look of a relief map of the Rocky Mountains. Ran the first 15 straight in Trap then started missing because I was laughing so hard. Plus it kicked like a mule. The other is a friend of mines' son. 13 years old. Shoots Trap with us maybe once a month with a 870 in 20ga using 7/8oz Wally World bulk packs. 20 for 25 consistently.

In clays it's much less the arrow and way more the Indian.

[EricW]

Hey Brett,

I'm all for patterning. I think it's very important. I just part ways with the patterning gurus at the beginning of "hole theory," which basically is predicated on a partial to complete denial of statistical laws and ignorance of the fact that the shot travels in a string, not as a flat plate.

If the patterning program you linked to helps me figure out if I'm not choked tight enough, EXCELLENT and THANK YOU! I plan to give it a whirl at the earliest opportunity.

E

[Tom D.]

Just have to put in my 2 c worth...patterning on a flat piece of paper is really worthless as it tells you nothing about the SHOT CLOUD. Amend that a bit..as has already been stated, this will show how your pattern is centered. For an in depth discussion of this, get a copy of Brister's "The Art & Science of Shotgunning".

Best regards to all,

TomD

[Doggorloader]

In my haste I forgot to mention we do have two decent shooters at the club (Bill the lawyer) and (Jim the bank president) who shoot mid 30's and an occasional 40 who do shoot Remington Nitros and STS's.
They both shoot a variety of shotguns that all end in an a,e,i,o,or u. Never a Y.

But....they only shoot the moola shells when they shoot together, when Bill shoots with the rest of us he shoots Estates and Jim shoots Rem. game loads.

That probably says alot about ammo choice right there.

I do reload for league and registered shoots and believe me, any time I can get Jim and Bill to go out together the game is 100 hull pickup and

[Hank Ellis]

EricW and all;

Don't get me wrong. Patterning is very important. You have to know where the shot string is going and when (distance from target) it starts to open up and get 'holes'. Every gun, choke, and ammo combination will be different. The pattern board is a very useful tool but not an all telling guru.

Back to the original question of the thread. I've used Estates and they broke birds. No problem with wad plastic being left behind or any other problem that I remember. Any better or worse than AA or STS? My scores didn't show it.

FWIW: One of the SC guys told me that the Winchester Super Target line of shells has the same wad, powder and shot as the AA. The only difference is the hull is non-reloadable. Took apart one of each and he's right.

[3GunF1Guy]

Eric, You what, most... well really all.. of the "holes" in the pattern of my shotgun shell is because the pattern needed to be 2 feet farther forward

I have been shooting skeet lately and reloading the Rem STS and Gun club hulls with 3/4 oz of 9 shot. They work just as well as the 1 1/8 oz shells, with a lot less recoil.

Scott

[tightloop]

3GunF1Guy, on Jan 23 2008, 03:35 PM, said:

Eric, You what, most... well really all.. of the "holes" in the pattern of my shotgun shell is because the pattern needed to be 2 feet farther forward

I have been shooting skeet lately and reloading the Rem STS and Gun club hulls with 3/4 oz of 9 shot. They work just as well as the 1 1/8 oz shells, with a lot less recoil.

Scott

I know you wouldn't cheat, but just to let you know #10 shot will not reliably break skeet targets...

[ranger]

I shoot a lot of clay targets. I quit reloading a couple of years ago for 12 gauge. I buy the 1oz Remington promos at Dicks or Bass Pro. Bass Pro had them on sale a few months ago for $2.99 per box - "no limit" - I bought 20 flats - half 8s and half 7.5s.

If I miss a target in Skeet, Trap, or SC - it is my fault and not the "cheap" Remington shells.

The only "value" I see to AAs or STS are the hulls - actually, the "new" AA hulls are not preferred anymore for reloading. I see very few shooters reloading 12 gauge anymore. I only reload 28 gauge now.

[3GunF1Guy]

tightloop, on Jan 23 2008, 02:54 PM, said:

3GunF1Guy, on Jan 23 2008, 03:35 PM, said:

Eric, You what, most... well really all.. of the "holes" in the pattern of my shotgun shell is because the pattern needed to be 2 feet farther forward

I have been shooting skeet lately and reloading the Rem STS and Gun club hulls with 3/4 oz of 9 shot. They work just as well as the 1 1/8 oz shells, with a lot less recoil.

Scott

I know you wouldn't cheat, but just to let you know #10 shot will not reliably break skeet targets...

I don't know about #10 shot but #9 does a dandy job on skeet and about 50% of the sporting clays shots. The really nice thing is that even after 100 rds you have no flinch.

Scott

[JD45]

Quite a few people around here are shooting these: http://catalog.ammod...emnumber=AC1218
Pay no attention to that price. You can find them for $50.00 a flat.

The barrels of my gun show hardly any powder residue from these, even at freezing temperatures. I don't shoot cheap shells a pattern board. Besides the choke, I can't change them, so I usually save the pattern board for reloads.

I like the way these shells break targets better than any cheap ones I've tried. Maybe it's because they are blue .

The rumor is they are made in a plant across the street from Noble shells or Rio(or something like that).

This post has been edited by JD45: 25 January 2008 - 12:55 PM

[SteveHarris]

RIOs are no bargin. They price them at whatever Estates are priced. RIO said the sell some in the east but not many in the rest of the country...................

[sargenv]

It's funny, but I've been breaking clay targets with the same load Scott is shooting for um.. fifteen or twenty years. Way back I noticed that Hercules (Now Alliant) had some light load target data. Ever since then I've been using these light loads and the clays don't seem to notice the difference at all. If I wanted some zip, I just used the international 24 gram load data.. 1350 fps and not much more recoil.

[Irishlad]

Back to the original question of Estates.

I'd call them and ask about the shot "hardness", if that's what you want or need. I'd bet they will tell you. Otherwise, I think ,as many do, that they are quality shells. Meaning, shot roundness, size is correct, good primers that go off, good wad, consistent quality production.
If they tell you 2-3% antimony, they are "chilled/soft". 5-6% they are magnum/hard...easy!

As far as reloading, prices vary by area and what's available to you. In my area, new shell costs have "caught up", and more, with rising shot prices. I can reload a 1 oz with "premium" components about $1.50 cheaper per box than "promo loads"...when all said is done. That's discounting "blow-out" pricing. Right now, I don't see anything under $63.00 per case?

I "think" circumstances have completely reversed in so far as reloading versus "new shells".

But, could be wrong!