120 replies to this topic

[Aristotle]

It's been a hot discussion of debate at my local club forum. So I'm dragging the proverbial dead horse over to the gang at BE. What's ya'll take on using a CR speed mag holder for IDPA. I saw a competitor with a it at a local IDPA club match, which is what sparked my question. Someone had to have asked and gotten a response from HQ regarding this matter.

What say you?

Edited by Flexmoney, 27 December 2007 - 02:55 PM.
to add poll.

[HoMiE]

Never asked HQ, but I was told at local club that CR pouches are not allowed, considered "race" equipment.

[Rocket35]

There is simply too much adjustment available for them to be legal. That seems to be the criteria for allowable gear in this sport. Before things get out of hand and people get bent out of shape- that is just an observation and not a "dig". In other words, they are not an approved concealed carry type pouch. I wouldn't expect that HQ would think any differently- nor should!

[Aristotle]

Here was a good arguement that was presented by one of our posters on our forum (whom is also a BE member) that has some valid points to consider.

quote:

FROM IDPA:

Magazine carrier must:
A. Be designed for concealed carry and suitable for all day
continuous wear. (subjective, yet CRSpeed does meet these criteria)

B. Be worn on a standard belt of no more than 1 ¾” width that
must pass through the belt loops on the shooter’s pants.(CRSpeed meets criteria)

C. Hold the magazine with enough tension to allow it to be
turned upside down and retain a fully loaded magazine. (CRSpeed meets criteria)

D. Cover 2” of the magazine as measured from the top of the
cartridge rim down the back flat of the magazine tube. (CRSpeed meets criteria)

E. Cover the entire front face of the portion of the magazine
inside the carrier. The front face is defined as the side of the
tube away from the shooter’s body.(CRSeed meets criteria)

F. Hold the magazine within 10 degrees of vertical (80-100° to
the ground) position on the belt, no substantial forward or rear
cant.(CRSpeed meets criteria)

G. Be worn in a belt location that will position the front edge of
the carrier behind the centerline of the body. (CRSpeed meets criteria)


Why would it NOT be legal for IDPA competition?

(/quote)

[Merlin Orr]

CR Speed holds the mag too far from the body. Legal? Never happen. It's a race mag holder.

[freeidaho]

Here was a good arguement that was presented by one of our posters on our forum (whom is also a BE member) that has some valid points to consider.

FROM IDPA:

Magazine carrier must:
A. Be designed for concealed carry and suitable for all day
continuous wear. (subjective, yet CRSpeed does meet these criteria)

I do not believe it meets criteria A. It does not appear to have been designed for concealed carry. It appears to have been designed for USPSA, to be used with a velcro belt.

kr

[Rocket35]

It's a race mag holder.

That is probably the most glaring reason it won't be deemed "legal". That and there is "speed" in the name of the product. Sorry- just had to add that. I couldn't control myself!

[racerba]

Why would it NOT be legal for IDPA competition?

See your clause "A" - CR Speed does NOT meet this criteria - it is not "designed" for concealed carry.

[HuskySig]

It appears to have been designed for USPSA, to be used with a velcro belt.

Perhaps, but the CR Speed mag pouches I have work just fine on my Wilderness Instructors 5 Stitch Belt.

I shoot both IDPA and USPSA. I enjoy both immensely and always look forward to match weekends throughout the work week. I do get a kick out of the IDPA bureaucracy that insists upon "Low speed, high drag."

mattk

[TDean]

Has everybody read (not "reading into") IDPA's description of an acceptable pouch?

There is simply too much adjustment available for them to be legal. That seems to be the criteria for allowable gear in this sport. Before things get out of hand and people get bent out of shape- that is just an observation and not a "dig". In other words, they are not an approved concealed carry type pouch. I wouldn't expect that HQ would think any differently- nor should!

Too much adjustment? Not in the book...
As long as it's +/- 10deg. from vert you're good. That's written.

CR Speed holds the mag too far from the body. Legal? Never happen. It's a race mag holder.

Does the rulebook state distance form body? What is it?
Where does it define a "race mag holder"?

FROM IDPA:

Magazine carrier must:
A. Be designed for concealed carry and suitable for all day
continuous wear. (subjective, yet CRSpeed does meet these criteria)

I do not believe it meets criteria A. It does not appear to have been designed for concealed carry. It appears to have been designed for USPSA, to be used with a velcro belt.

kr

The fact that the mag meets all other IDPA criteria should outweigh our assumption as to what they were designed for.
Heck, what was Blade-Tech's "tech-lok" system designed for? What was a fiber-optic front sight designd for? Concealed carry?

The poll is asking if the pouches meet the requirements in the rulebook, not if you think they should be allowed.

What about the "face fully covered" requirement? I'm surprised no one mentioned that rule.

cheers,

Tom

[ChuckS]

Magazine carrier must:
A. Be designed for concealed carry and suitable for all day
continuous wear. (subjective, yet CRSpeed does meet these criteria)

Yup, subjective. Unless you have a specific ruling from HQ, you are at the mercy of the match officials. If I was a match official and I did not like USPSA shooters, sorry. But let's say the person has never considerd these before and he goes to the Rescomp Web Site What do they see at the top of the page? "Designed to Win". You really need to get a ruling.

But, what is the point? With all the other crap you have to do on reloads (concealment, RWR, etc) any advantage that you get over an "acceptable" mag pouch is lost in the noise (unless you are one of those guys who always seem to be at slidelock ).

Happy New Year,
Chuck

[Singlestack Wonder]

If I was a match official and I did not like USPSA shooters, sorry. But let's say the person has never considerd these before and he goes to the Rescomp Web Site What do they see at the top of the page? "Designed to Win". You really need to get a ruling.

But, what is the point? With all the other crap you have to do on reloads (concealment, RWR, etc) any advantage that you get over an "acceptable" mag pouch is lost in the noise (unless you are one of those guys who always seem to be at slidelock ).

I just don't understand the need for IDPA bashing. IDPA has a clear set of rules to follow. If one doesn't agree with the rules, don't play. Many of us appreciate the "crap" mentioned above as we enjoy shooting IDPA using a different set of skills that are required vs. other games.

[TDean]

Everybody assume the crash position....

[HoMiE]

I shoot both IDPA and USPSA, as well as Steel. FWIW, I have been told my CR speed mag pouches are not legal, but my safariland 773s are OK. To settle the debate, I called IDPA HQ and am awaiting a response via email.

[HuskySig]

I just don't understand the need for IDPA bashing.

I don't think anyone is bashing IDPA in this thread, but a few people need some thicker skin. Why can't anyone ever voice a question about IDPA without it turning into the accusation of being bashing?

mattk

[Rocket35]

I just don't understand the need for IDPA bashing.

I don't think anyone is bashing IDPA in this thread, but a few people need some thicker skin. Why can't anyone ever voice a question about IDPA without it turning into the accusation of being bashing?

mattk

+10

IDPA has always been against products designed for "competition use". And that is great. But to try and "game" with potentially unapproved gear is bashing the sport also IMHO.

[Rocket35]

Magazine carrier must:
A. Be designed for concealed carry and suitable for all day
continuous wear. (subjective, yet CRSpeed does meet these criteria)

Yup, subjective. Unless you have a specific ruling from HQ, you are at the mercy of the match officials. If I was a match official and I did not like USPSA shooters, sorry. But let's say the person has never considerd these before and he goes to the Rescomp Web Site What do they see at the top of the page? "Designed to Win". You really need to get a ruling.

+1 Chuck hit the nail on the head with this one....

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I voted No on this but being the diligent SO I am, I contacted Rescomp and asked them.

"> Are your Mag holders designed for concealed carry and self defense use? "

Answer:


Our pouches are used by several of the SA Police units. The
tension is adjustable

Best Regards,
Franco Resca
CEO
Rescomp Handgun Technologies CC
www.crspeed.co.za
The Home of Championship Winning AccessoriesFrom: "Round Gun Shooter" <RGS-ty43215@comcast.net>


With an answer like that, if the mag holders are worn behind the center line and pitched as stated in the rules, I would allow them at a match I was officiating

I would surmise from this they were designed with no specific intent other than to retain magazines.

Regards,

Edited by Round_Gun_Shooter, 29 December 2007 - 12:22 PM.

[ChuckS]

I voted No on this but being the diligent SO I am, I contacted Rescomp and asked them.

"> Are your Mag holders designed for concealed carry and self defense use? "

Answer:


Our pouches are used by several of the SA Police units. The
tension is adjustable

Best Regards,
Franco Resca
CEO
Rescomp Handgun Technologies CC
www.crspeed.co.za
The Home of Championship Winning AccessoriesFrom: "Round Gun Shooter" <RGS-ty43215@comcast.net>


With an answer like that, if the mag holders are worn behind the center line and pitched as stated in the rules, I would allow them at a match I was officiating

I would surmise from this they were designed with no specific intent other than to retain magazines.

Regards,

Cool. Send that on in to HQ and see if you can get a ruling. Again, it's best if it comes from the mother ship.

As for the crap stuff, no bashing intended. I was trying to make the point that there would be minimal gain to using a CR pouch to a leather belt pouch in this game. Bringing in competition-like gear could just antagonize match officials and start a crap storm for no good reason.

Later,
Chuck

PS: In Franco's last sentence I wonder if he is referring to the tension of the pouches or the tension of the police units?

[freeidaho]

Use by police departments is hardly an endorsement for concealed carry. Most duty gear doesn't conceal at all.

kr

[Duane Thomas]

but being the diligent SO I am, I contacted Rescomp and asked them.

"> Are your Mag holders designed for concealed carry and self defense use? "

Answer:


Our pouches are used by several of the SA Police units. The tension is adjustable

What strikes me about that reply is that he didn't actually answer the question.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I voted No on this but being the diligent SO I am, I contacted Rescomp and asked them.

"> Are your Mag holders designed for concealed carry and self defense use? "

Answer:


Our pouches are used by several of the SA Police units. The
tension is adjustable

Best Regards,
Franco Resca
CEO
Rescomp Handgun Technologies CC
www.crspeed.co.za
The Home of Championship Winning AccessoriesFrom: "Round Gun Shooter" <RGS-ty43215@comcast.net>


With an answer like that, if the mag holders are worn behind the center line and pitched as stated in the rules, I would allow them at a match I was officiating

I would surmise from this they were designed with no specific intent other than to retain magazines.

Regards,

Cool. Send that on in to HQ and see if you can get a ruling. Again, it's best if it comes from the mother ship.

As for the crap stuff, no bashing intended. I was trying to make the point that there would be minimal gain to using a CR pouch to a leather belt pouch in this game. Bringing in competition-like gear could just antagonize match officials and start a crap storm for no good reason.

Later,
Chuck

PS: In Franco's last sentence I wonder if he is referring to the tension of the pouches or the tension of the police units?

Actually, I could care less about a ruling. I shoot a revolver and have all the speed loader holders I need Just wanted to see what Rescomp would say.

I will address the other two statements also:

Duane-I feel he side stepped the question rather nicely.

Ken- The rules have nothing that state it must be concealable it only states design criteria.

Although I do not feel they are suitable for IDPA, the fact that duty gear is allowed for a LEO and conceivably some parts of a duty rig can be used off duty, I would allow them at one of my matches.

Would they make it for a State, Regional, or National event?? I doubt it and I suggest anyone trying to argue the point would find the one stage they shoot the most expensive one they have ever shot I am not one to risk a DQ for marginal gear. It just ruins the integrity of the sport you are trying to push the envelope in whether it is golf, racing, baseball,IDPA or USPA.

I have seen some marginal equipment. I always ask "Is that how you carry every day?" If the answer is yes, I let it go. If the answer is No I tell the shooter next time bring the proper gear for the game.

[TDean]

It's interesting that the majority here (based on poll results) have come to a decision, not based on specific and identifiable features of the mag pouch, but based on their opinion (design intent and marketing).

[PJONES5]

If I was a match official and I did not like USPSA shooters, sorry. But let's say the person has never considerd these before and he goes to the Rescomp Web Site What do they see at the top of the page? "Designed to Win". You really need to get a ruling.

But, what is the point? With all the other crap you have to do on reloads (concealment, RWR, etc) any advantage that you get over an "acceptable" mag pouch is lost in the noise (unless you are one of those guys who always seem to be at slidelock ).

I just don't understand the need for IDPA bashing. IDPA has a clear set of rules to follow. If one doesn't agree with the rules, don't play. Many of us appreciate the "crap" mentioned above as we enjoy shooting IDPA using a different set of skills that are required vs. other games.

As a IDPA shooter and Match Director,I don't see any IDPA bashing in this thread,not to say it doesn't happen on the FORUM.but in this case not so.
I would allow them at our matches.
I just put two on under my vest to see how they fit and they are fine.
This not designed for concealed carry is a misnomer and catch all for people who have their own idea of what the rule book says.
Pat

[freeidaho]

This not designed for concealed carry is a misnomer and catch all for people who have their own idea of what the rule book says.
Pat

I don't understand. You mean like this part of the rulebook:
1. IDPA Magazine Carrier Criteria
Magazine carrier must:
A. Be designed for concealed carry and suitable for all day continuous wear.

kr