[P.Pres]

Any good drills to build up rifle stability, preferably dryfire? Mainly engaging while moving towards
or away from target (50-75yds). This is a weak point for me, always hitting in a circle around the
A zone, cant get the sucker to settle down!! I am doing the right footwork and body positions but
its the barrel that wont stop in the right place (haha!). Its not bad at all moving side to side...

Need to work the fine upper body muscles that hold it in one place...

[kurtm]

Get a heavy barrel M1A or find a nice heavy sniper rifle, and hold it out in front of you for a minute at a time, It really won't help much, but at least you will be sore for a while and feel like you are accomplishing something.

You are over controling the fore-end loosen your grip, let the rifle just sit in your hand and point the finger...no not the traffic finger, the INDEX finger! If it works side to side it WILL work front to back, your body already knows how, just let it. KURTM

[outerlimits]

kurt-yer idea reminds me of the old "snapping in" dayz in usmc, circa 1970. did it for 7 dayz straight b4 we got to even chamber a round. amazing what the body does in those weird positions. now, getting into the same some 37 years later is another story...

[Religious Shooter]

DIRTY CHAMBER, on Oct 9 2007, 06:04 PM, said:

Any good drills to build up rifle stability, preferably dryfire? Mainly engaging while moving towards
or away from target (50-75yds).

Just wondering... is it a good idea to SOTM with 50+ yard targets? Is it standard practice for the better guys?

I can see the benefit to use pistol technique with a long gun on 0-10 yard targets... but at 50+ yards?

Or is this just a steel and practice thing? That is you have to shoot 50+ yards because of safety (the steel being substitutes for closer paper) and you wouldn't normally do it in a competition setting?

[kurtm]

For iron sights, 75 is pushing it to shoot and move, but 50 is just fine. With a good optic 75 is about right and 100 is pushing it. so you gain about 50 yards with an optic, BUT I don't think I would shoot and move in a major match over 50 with either system, although I did do it at RM3G this year for a couple of 100 yard flashers, but I had lots o bullets to spend! Like many skills it is nice to have for the 2 or 3 times you might ever need it, but I wouldn't put a whole bunch of time in on it! KURTM

P.S. I hope you aren't tring to hold the mag well and keep your elbows in, that is the WORST thing you can do for shooting and moving!

[mike.45]

Quote

Get a heavy barrel M1A or find a nice heavy sniper rifle, and hold it out in front of you for a minute at a time, It really won't help much, but at least you will be sore for a while and feel like you are accomplishing something.

[Leozinho]

kurtm, on Oct 10 2007, 08:19 AM, said:

P.S. I hope you aren't tring to hold the mag well and keep your elbows in, that is the WORST thing you can do for shooting and moving!

Kurt,

Why is that? I'm certainly not doubting you. Usually, when the tactical guys ask me why I shoot the way I do, my explanation is usually "the competition shooters, who have put a lot more thought and experimentation into this than you or me, have figured out that this way is faster (or better, or more accurate, etc.)"

Maybe if I can articulate it better, I can get my buddies to take off their vertical foregrips and quit holding the magwell.

Thanks.

[kurtm]

Because it locks your hands/arms and shoulders to the lower body and hips. Now think about what moves when you walk, or just watch a nice rear view of a "hotty" walk and tell me what moves. If they still doubt that, tell them to take a HOT coffee cup, lock in thier hands and sholders just like they are holding said carbine (one hand on cup handle and one hand grasping and pulling cup front and take off walking. Now try it with your hands and arms relaxed and away from your body, just like the waiterss "hotty" you just watched walk does it. See which way spills less coffe...SHE KNOWS! KurtM

[BPiatt]

Leozinho, on Nov 2 2007, 01:46 PM, said:

kurtm, on Oct 10 2007, 08:19 AM, said:

P.S. I hope you aren't tring to hold the mag well and keep your elbows in, that is the WORST thing you can do for shooting and moving!

Kurt,

Why is that? I'm certainly not doubting you. Usually, when the tactical guys ask me why I shoot the way I do, my explanation is usually "the competition shooters, who have put a lot more thought and experimentation into this than you or me, have figured out that this way is faster (or better, or more accurate, etc.)"

Maybe if I can articulate it better, I can get my buddies to take off their vertical foregrips and quit holding the magwell.

Thanks.

Another way to look at it is this:

We'll all agree that the barrel has to be pointed at the target to make the hit.

If the rifle is shouldered, the rear of the barrel is pretty much in the same spot for all of us.

He who controls the muzzle movement will have the most accuracy and faster follow up shots, correct?

So imagine the barrel being 10 Ft. long....... and I tell you that your life depends on keeping that muzzle as steady as possible.... would you have your weak hand towards the back or would you extend your arm as far as you could?

If you answered that you would extend your arm, then why would you change anything if the barrel is 16-20"?

At least this is the way I look at it, but that's just my opinion.

Bruce

[P.Pres]

I dont do the mag well thing, I have been practicing this
and just like Kurt said I am overcontrolling the fore end.
I found that I am too tense and if I just loosen up the arms
as supports to only hold the weight of rifle it all setles down.

I have even tried to remove my strong hand from the grip with
only the thumb and index(trigger) touching the grip, works
really good for me, mentally loosening up!!! Thanks!!!

[jobob]

I got a video on Isreali counter terror carbine training. They recommend grasping the forend tightly and pulling it back HARD into the shoulder. Well, actually it's more into the chest, with the carbine stock on only the first or second notch. Also, they say that the bottom of the 30 round mag should be digging into the shooters forearm hard enough to leave a buise! Their reasoning is not to hold the gun steady for a shot, but to control recoil for fast follow up shots on close range and multiple targets. It's not how I shoot, but it's interesting seeing another perspective.

[kurtm]

I've got a video of a guy feeding and petting sharks! He says there is just a bit of technique involved, and he has never been bit, but I don't think I will sit around the old "chumcicle" to find out.

There are two distinct schools on recoil control, one says let the gun float and find the place where the sights naturally return to the propper sight picture. The other school is to over come all recoil through muscle tension. All you have to do is figure out which one works best for you. I know the answer for the vast majority, but everone is different.

Anyone that tells me that in order to use a tool properly I must bruise or hurt myself to use it I am suspicious. I have also never had anyone tell me to "tense way up" to move smoothly and I think I would question that also.

I have watched a whole mirad of Video on various shooting techniques, and after watching them I have come to realise that anything that has the word Commando/Spetznaz/Ultimat/Israelii/Secrets of the "fill in the blank" in the title usually doesn't work for me.

The bottom line is to try it both ways. Expend enough ammo to see what works, and then do it.

[kurtm]

I've got a video of a guy feeding and petting sharks! He says there is just a bit of technique involved, and he has never been bit, but I don't think I will sit around the old "chumcicle" to find out.

There are two distinct schools on recoil control, one says let the gun float and find the place where the sights naturally return to the propper sight picture. The other school is to over come all recoil through muscle tension. All you have to do is figure out which one works best for you. I know the answer for the vast majority, but everone is different.

Anyone that tells me that in order to use a tool properly I must bruise or hurt myself to use it I am suspicious. I have also never had anyone tell me to "tense way up" to move smoothly and I think I would question that also.

I have watched a whole mirad of Video on various shooting techniques, and after watching them I have come to realise that anything that has the word Commando/Spetznaz/Ultimat/Israelii/Secrets of the "fill in the blank" in the title usually doesn't work for me.

The bottom line is to try it both ways. Expend enough ammo to see what works, and then do it.

[latewatch]

jobob, on Nov 11 2007, 12:06 AM, said:

I got a video on Isreali counter terror carbine training. They recommend grasping the forend tightly and pulling it back HARD into the shoulder. Well, actually it's more into the chest, with the carbine stock on only the first or second notch. Also, they say that the bottom of the 30 round mag should be digging into the shooters forearm hard enough to leave a buise! Their reasoning is not to hold the gun steady for a shot, but to control recoil for fast follow up shots on close range and multiple targets. It's not how I shoot, but it's interesting seeing another perspective.

I went to a "Counter-Terrorism School" taught by a former Israeli SF type. The Israelis don't teach to SOTM, they teach to run like hell and then stop and shoot. The position they teach is to lock up REAL HARD on the rifle with the mag locked into the offside forearm. Once locked up they teach to dump 5 rounds into the bad guy as quick as possible. I found this technique to be ackward, unnecessary, and not effective for accuracy at any range. Just my $0.02 .

[jobob]

Latewatch, I think your $.02 is pretty good! Yours too, Kurt. I try to avoid feeding sharks myself!

I wasn't advocating the Israeli technique, just threw it out for discussion. I try not to shoot all tensed up, but to tell the truth, I'm not sure exactly what I'm doing on the hoser stages. Probably muscling the gun more than I would want. In practice I often find myself tensing up to make a shot. Not good for accuracy, but I'm not sure it hurts for hosing or SOTM.

[kurtm]

It only hurts when you trip and fall, come to a sudden stop from full speed (I.E. running into a prop wall) or bruise you ego.

[P.Pres]

Excuse my ignorance, but what does SOTM stand for??

[kurtm]

Standing on the mountain, thats why I say it hurts when you fall down

No really it stands for " SHOOT ON THE MOVE", the one place that it is especially important NOT to be tense as you already found out KURTM

This post has been edited by kurtm: 14 November 2007 - 01:49 PM

[P.Pres]

Why did that have to be so simple!!!

[M ammo]

I don’t shoot as well as Kurt or Bruce, and probably never will.

The long range stage at the nationals. That half standing window to the left.
Shooting 326 yards. I shot 4 or 5 rounds per target. I got no less than 2 or 3 hits per.
And I can’t say I ever had the cross hair on the target stabilized at any time.

I can’t get the sights to stay still.
I have come to the realization that for ME. All targets are moving targets.
And I try my best to deal with it using trigger control. Just before the sights move over the spot you want to hit. Let it go.

Jim M ammo