[tightloop]

Perhaps someone can inform me what was the thinking when it was decided to allow 9mm Maj only in Open...Why not Limited or Production also? Why is it considered ok for Major in Open and nowhere else...?

[Alan Meek]

Capacity disparity between 9mm and 40 in the mags

[tightloop]

Alan Meek, on Aug 27 2007, 01:45 PM, said:

Capacity disparity between 9mm and 40 in the mags

Can you please give me a little more than that....I can see the difference in what the mags will take, but did every one just sit in a room one day and decide that 9mm Maj would only be in Open...interested in what the thinking was there...Why only one division....

[al503]

Alan Meek, on Aug 27 2007, 11:45 AM, said:

Capacity disparity between 9mm and 40 in the mags

Agree. Although this may open another can of worms, all they would have to do is set a max capacity limit (like they do for production.)

With bullets getting very expensive, I'd shoot my 9mm limited gun in everything but larger matches (area, nationals, etc.)

[BritinUSA]

Back when the PF was 175 a Major 9mm would blow up just about any 9mm on the market. The Open guns had supported chambers etc. and could stand the beating but some 9mm are only designed for +P ammo and Major was way beyond that.

[Jake Di Vita]

Agree with the above post. The reason for Production (and also the reason for the 10 round limit at the time) was that it was meant as a division where anyone could come shoot with a factory gun and factory ammo.

[HoMiE]

Probably not allowed limited because some "stock" guns can't handle 9x19major.

What would be the advantage in Production where everybody is scored as minor?

[eerw]

Open is open..

and well Limited is ...limited..

production is minor, no major scoring

[tightloop]

eerw, on Aug 27 2007, 01:58 PM, said:

Open is open..

and well Limited is ...limited..

production is minor, no major scoring

Limited is no optics but why no 9mm Maj...the supported chamber thing does not hold water...can get any pistol with a supported chamber

Production does not have to be minor....get a supported bbl and it could be maj...

it just makes no logical sense to me..

[tightloop]

Jake Di Vita, on Aug 27 2007, 01:55 PM, said:

Agree with the above post. The reason for Production (and also the reason for the 10 round limit at the time) was that it was meant as a division where anyone could come shoot with a factory gun and factory ammo.

I understand the part about get an over the counter pistol and come on out...but IIRC the 10 round mag thing was due to the AWB during the Clinton era....right?

[zhunter]

I am with TL on this one.

Limited would be just that with 9mm, no optics and no comp to deal with the velocity.

Seems BS to me

[HoMiE]

tightloop, on Aug 27 2007, 12:06 PM, said:

Production does not have to be minor....get a supported bbl and it could be maj...
it just makes no logical sense to me..

...get a supported bbl...

The whole premise of Production is to come out and shoot what you already have. It would discourage people if they think they have to rebarrel their 9mm to be competitive. 9 minor puts emphasis on accuracy. If there were no limits on the different divisions, there would just be Open and it would be heads-up for everybody.

This post has been edited by HoMiE: 27 August 2007 - 12:16 PM

[tightloop]

HoMiE, on Aug 27 2007, 02:15 PM, said:

tightloop, on Aug 27 2007, 12:06 PM, said:

Production does not have to be minor....get a supported bbl and it could be maj...
it just makes no logical sense to me..

...get a supported bbl...

The whole premise of Production is to come out and shoot what you already have. It would discourage people if they think they have to rebarrel their 9mm to be competitive. 9 minor puts emphasis on accuracy. If there were no limits on the different divisions, there would just be Open and it would be heads-up for everybody.

The differences in the pistols would differentiate the divisions...power factors should be just that....and if you can make a limited 9mm major, go for it..too much preference toward the Freestyle aspect of Open shooters...IMHO

[HoMiE]

tightloop, on Aug 27 2007, 12:19 PM, said:

HoMiE, on Aug 27 2007, 02:15 PM, said:

tightloop, on Aug 27 2007, 12:06 PM, said:

Production does not have to be minor....get a supported bbl and it could be maj...
it just makes no logical sense to me..

...get a supported bbl...

The whole premise of Production is to come out and shoot what you already have. It would discourage people if they think they have to rebarrel their 9mm to be competitive. 9 minor puts emphasis on accuracy. If there were no limits on the different divisions, there would just be Open and it would be heads-up for everybody.

The differences in the pistols would differentiate the divisions...power factors should be just that....and if you can make a limited 9mm major, go for it..too much preference toward the Freestyle aspect of Open shooters...IMHO

If I understand you correctly, you just want to remove the minimum bullet caliber for Limited then to be able to shoot 9major loads?

[Alan Meek]

This actually goes back to the 356 TSW.

Back then there had to be available three different manufacture loads to make major.

S&W introduced the 356TSW and shortly there after it came down that in order to make major you were limited to a minimum of .40/10mm.

[tightloop]

HoMiE, on Aug 27 2007, 02:24 PM, said:

tightloop, on Aug 27 2007, 12:19 PM, said:

HoMiE, on Aug 27 2007, 02:15 PM, said:

tightloop, on Aug 27 2007, 12:06 PM, said:

Production does not have to be minor....get a supported bbl and it could be maj...
it just makes no logical sense to me..

...get a supported bbl...

The whole premise of Production is to come out and shoot what you already have. It would discourage people if they think they have to rebarrel their 9mm to be competitive. 9 minor puts emphasis on accuracy. If there were no limits on the different divisions, there would just be Open and it would be heads-up for everybody.

The differences in the pistols would differentiate the divisions...power factors should be just that....and if you can make a limited 9mm major, go for it..too much preference toward the Freestyle aspect of Open shooters...IMHO

If I understand you correctly, you just want to remove the minimum bullet caliber for Limited then to be able to shoot 9major loads?

No, just wondering why only in Open...the Open pistols are basically the same as Limited but for the optics. Just wondering what makes Open so special, didn't optic sights make it different enough..

[Jim Norman]

Want to really piss off the rank and file membership. Tell them that their $3000 limited blaster that they just bought is now NON-COMPETITIVE, You need to shoot a 9mm since you get 4-5 more rounds than you can in the same tube with a .40.

Ever wonder why people don't shoot .45 in Limited? Who wants to shoot a 15 round gun agains 21-22 rounds?

Allowing 9mm Major in Open have a zero sum effect on the game other than the cost of brass. If you are shooting a .38Super, you are not at a disadvantage competitively against a 9mm gun.

Then there is the potential that stay major 9mm rounds getting mixed into the game and somone running one thru a Glock, (Not saying a G won't take-it, simply an possible scenario) Personally I would rather that we didn't allow a 9mm Major in Open either for just this very reason.

Most all of us know better than to run range rounds through our guns, but after a match someone could show up, shot, and inadvertantly pick-up a 9mm Major round and run ith thru a gun that simply will not take it.

Youwant to shoot 9mm in Limited, go ahead, shoot it as a minor, have the 4 round advantage and just shoot more A's faster.

Jim

[HSMITH]

Allow 9mm Limited and you have a couple thousand guys are going to be kicking and screaming about it, and another couple thousand that are going to be having new top ends built for their Limited guns. I can get 24 rounds in a legal 140 9mm mag, 23 reloadable. That makes 9mm a 2-4 round advantage over a 40 right out of the gates.

I am all for a 9mm Major in Limited. I would not like to see it without a max capacity of 20 or 21 rounds though. I wouldn't want to see all of the incredible 40 cal limited guns out their made obsolete (opinion) by a stroke of the pen.

[zhunter]

HSMITH, on Aug 27 2007, 04:00 PM, said:

Allow 9mm Limited and you have a couple thousand guys are going to be kicking and screaming about it, and another couple thousand that are going to be having new top ends built for their Limited guns. I can get 24 rounds in a legal 140 9mm mag, 23 reloadable. That makes 9mm a 2-4 round advantage over a 40 right out of the gates.

I am all for a 9mm Major in Limited. I would not like to see it without a max capacity of 20 or 21 rounds though. I wouldn't want to see all of the incredible 40 cal limited guns out their made obsolete (opinion) by a stroke of the pen.

Good points

[foxtrotuniformlima]

tightloop, on Aug 27 2007, 11:42 AM, said:

Perhaps someone can inform me what was the thinking when it was decided to allow 9mm Maj only in Open...Why not Limited or Production also? Why is it considered ok for Major in Open and nowhere else...?

I asked the powers that be once this question except is was why not allow 38 super as major in Ltd?

Seemed to me an honest question. I was told that it would make far too many guns obsolete. They did not want to do that.

I'm guessing if you substituted 9x19 for 38 super you would get the same answer.

[FullRace]

Jim Norman, on Aug 27 2007, 03:54 PM, said:

Want to really piss off the rank and file membership. Tell them that their $3000 limited blaster that they just bought is now NON-COMPETITIVE, You need to shoot a 9mm since you get 4-5 more rounds than you can in the same tube with a .40.

Ever wonder why people don't shoot .45 in Limited? Who wants to shoot a 15 round gun agains 21-22 rounds?

Allowing 9mm Major in Open have a zero sum effect on the game other than the cost of brass. If you are shooting a .38Super, you are not at a disadvantage competitively against a 9mm gun.

Then there is the potential that stay major 9mm rounds getting mixed into the game and somone running one thru a Glock, (Not saying a G won't take-it, simply an possible scenario) Personally I would rather that we didn't allow a 9mm Major in Open either for just this very reason.

Most all of us know better than to run range rounds through our guns, but after a match someone could show up, shot, and inadvertantly pick-up a 9mm Major round and run ith thru a gun that simply will not take it.

Youwant to shoot 9mm in Limited, go ahead, shoot it as a minor, have the 4 round advantage and just shoot more A's faster.

Jim

I don't know about a lot of other people, but for me I would not be shooting OPEN if 9 Major was not allowed!! I think a lot of other folks would not be shooting OPEN either. Just read the forum comments every time a sweet 38S OPEN gun is put up for sale, "IF that was 9 major I'd be all over it". I hear comments all the time at local matches about the high cost of shooting 38S now. I get quite a few questions about who built my gun, whats my load..........

IMHO, some idiot on the range picking up live ammo to shoot ought not to be allowed in the gene pool and because some idiot might pick up a 9 Major round and shoot it is like saying "Lets stop USPSA because someone might break the 180".

I completely agree with your other comments though on allowing 9 Major in Limited.

[Jake Di Vita]

To make a point.

When I can get enough cash to buy another Open gun....it will probably be a .40.

[Merlin Orr]

I am wondering what will be said when I shoot my next major match with my Limited 6" - in Open major.... using factory 9mm Winchester ammo.....

This post has been edited by Merlin Orr: 27 August 2007 - 02:08 PM

[zhunter]

Jake Di Vita, on Aug 27 2007, 04:44 PM, said:

To make a point.

When I can get enough cash to buy another Open gun....it will probably be a .40.

Why?

[Bear23]

tightloop, on Aug 27 2007, 12:06 PM, said:

eerw, on Aug 27 2007, 01:58 PM, said:

Open is open..

and well Limited is ...limited..

production is minor, no major scoring

Limited is no optics but why no 9mm Maj...the supported chamber thing does not hold water...can get any pistol with a supported chamber

Production does not have to be minor....get a supported bbl and it could be maj...

it just makes no logical sense to me..

Off the shelf 9mm ammo is not major. With production, it is (in essence) a shoot what you can buy rather easily. Even most +p ammo is nowhere near the velocity needed for 'major' scoring.

9mm major is done in Open as magazine capacity would be not different than 38 super and sc. The powders we have today and with much tinkering can get you to major. You are more than welcome to shoot .40 in Open. Allowing 9major did not send droves of people to get their guns rechambered.

Allowing 9 major in Limited is just silly. You would now force thousands of shooters to go to 9major just because of the magazine capacity. 4-6 rounds of extra ammo per mag would do just that, it would changed the whole focus of the sport. Many would be out since they could not afford to retool, and those that can would finish in matches just as they were before 9major was allowed.

So, the net result is nothing, wasted dollars for the game, and the top 25% of shooters would finish like they would shooting major with 40.