[Demetrio]

Of course it's great to win, but I have already noticed that, under some circumstances, the perspective of winning a match can bring negative influence on our next stages. I lost myself a regional match, long time ago, because on the last stage of the competition, being aware that I was going to win, I was so careful on that last stage in order to do everything right that I ended up doing everything wrong. The result: I was second place instead of first. In other words, I didn't know how to deal with the perspective of winning.

So, what do you do to control yourself when it seems to you that you are going to win a match, in order not to be negatively influenced with this perspective?

[Matt Cheely]

Shoot each stage one at a time. I never look at the results or how I compare to anyone else untill I'm done.

[tgibson]

Matt Cheely, on Jul 18 2007, 06:53 AM, said:

Shoot each stage one at a time. I never look at the results or how I compare to anyone else untill I'm done.

Same here. I'll check out the scores, but I won't "do the math". I let the scorekeepers do that. Just one thing to remember. You are only shooting against yourself. Shoot your own game to the best of your ablitliy. You have no controll over what everyone else does. For what it is worth.
TG

[tightloop]

Just like golfers....one shot at a time...

[Rocket35]

tgibson, on Jul 18 2007, 08:00 AM, said:

Matt Cheely, on Jul 18 2007, 06:53 AM, said:

Shoot each stage one at a time. I never look at the results or how I compare to anyone else untill I'm done.

You are only shooting against yourself. Shoot your own game to the best of your ablitliy. You have no controll over what everyone else does. For what it is worth.

This is exactly were I roll- It is like tgibson read my mind. It has really helped tremendously to remind myself of my abilities learned in practice and not to push myself beyond my limits. My "regional" match score have improved since I seemed to get a better grasp of that concept.

Also: Matt should know! Seems like he wins everything- which can attribute to him not needing to look at the scores!

[Demetrio]

Matt Cheely, on Jul 18 2007, 05:53 AM, said:

I never look at the results or how I compare to anyone else untill I'm done.

All right, you may not look at the results yourself, but others (good or bad-intentioned, who knows ) will come to you saying you are leading the match, so you will have to deal with that anyway.

It seems to be a good advice "to shoot against yourself only" indeed, like suggested by tgibson. I will definitely try to do that on my next matches for sure.

[Flexmoney]

Focus on executing the fundamentals. Let the outcome fall where it may...to be determined by your execution of the game.

[DMH]

I shoot my best stages when I play and joke with friends. This is supposed to be fun and I perform much better when laughing my a$$ of instead of caring about the results.

[38superman]

I have no idea.
You'll have to ask someone that's been there.

This post has been edited by 38superman: 18 July 2007 - 08:01 AM

[pas44]

tightloop, on Jul 18 2007, 09:01 AM, said:

Just like golfers....one shot at a time...

Actually, just like marksmen... one shot at a time. Once the round leaves the barrel, you can't change it, it's time to focus on the next shot.

[Demetrio]

38superman, on Jul 18 2007, 08:00 AM, said:

I have no idea.
You'll have to ask someone that's been there.

With a nice pistol like that you have (the one in your avatar), I'm sure you'll be there soon.

[Flexmoney]

Lanny Bassham's book (With Winning In Mind) is a very good read on this topic.

[Rocket35]

Good call Flex- when used, the tools in his book do work....

[SouthpawG26]

Flexmoney, on Jul 19 2007, 11:12 AM, said:

Lanny Bassham's book (With Winning In Mind) is a very good read on this topic.

Basshams's book and Steve Anderson's Refinement and Repetition 2 should have been bound together and sold as one. Really. Since they don't come like this, don't buy one without the other .

[Pharaoh Bender]

Matt Cheely, on Jul 18 2007, 08:53 AM, said:

Shoot each stage one at a time. I never look at the results or how I compare to anyone else untill I'm done.

+1

I too NEVER look at results until my last shot is fired. By shooting each stage to the best of my ability, I know that I have given my best performance without the influence of outside sources.

[Bear23]

All good advice, not that i've ever won a big match. But lately is just shoot each stage as best as i can and then worry about how it all turned out. I do look at my stage performances if they have results up, but don't worry about them. I don't come to a stage and say "I have to shoot this thing in 15 seconds."

After a match i analyze that data and see where it is i need to make up time compared to the upper class shooters and then work on those things.

[P.E. Kelley]

I look at the stage results. I am not pretending nor trying to fool myself on whether I am winning or not. Simple mind,
simple task. Show up, sign up and shoot. Score keepers handle the scores. I know if I am shooting well or not.

If I win, I win. If I shoot a great match and loose I was bested by better. It has never changed.

That is my take.

Patrick

[mpeltier]

Maybee it was the perspective of loosing that got you. Think you can or think you can't, either way your right. (Not my quote but I like it non the less). A great illustration of that is in the movie the greatest game ever played. Frances Quimet is about to hit the ball, sees his dad then falls appart. For me it was a powerful scene as I used to be like that shooting tournaments. Now I try to relax no matter what and focus on bieng confident and possitive. For me that has been the hardest obstacle to overcome in shooting tournaments.

[G-ManBart]

It's sort of the opposite of when you have a really bad stage....forget what you've done and shoot the current stage the way you think is best. If you're shooting well enough to think you're leading then you're shooting well enough to just keep doing what you're doing and be fine

[j1b]

I think this is a fabulous question.

There are strategies about doing it: "stick to the basics" "don't look at the scores" "shoot every stage as only a stage"

But there is a true mental component to it. Let's say, for arguments sake, that there is a shoe tying contest. All of us get to compete for the win. All of us have tied shoes thousands of times. Now, the winner gets $1M. Second place and lower gets nada. Do the winnings change any component of the shoe tying process? No. But if any one of us were in that position - somehow that particular time tying your shoe would be different than the thousands of others you'd tied.

So that is the question. How do you deal with that?

Hard to say. I've got my own philosophies - but I like this thread because it's not tangible. For me, there is no question that my "chemistry" changes if I'm in a position to win. Sometimes I was able to cross the line. Sometimes I choked. But there is a change, a change in the butterflies perhaps. Or a change in the focus (REALLY focusing on the basics instead of just "shooting comfortable") whatever it is - something for me changes. And, like I said, sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. Obviously the top folks of the game have figured it out.

A lot of it for me breaks down to: not being afraid to win (sounds stupid but it connects with me). Choosing to win (mentally) instead of just wanting to win. And honestly, a lot of it has got to do with getting a lucky bounce here and there.

I love threads like this. I hope it goes on and on!

J

[j1b]

I got to thinking about this more and more. Just felt like posting more I guess.

The first "real" match that I remember having a chance at winning was a presidents cup match many years ago. Part of me didn't believe I should have even been in contention because ONE target on ONE stage I'd shot a B. Please note, the target was a full target and I knew in my heart of hearts that the shot probably should have been a miss. I was shooting with Team Springfield in the squad and I knew they knew as well.

Still, coming into the last stage I was in the lead by 15 or 20 points. The last stage was a small stage, two strings at probably 12 shots a string. And I remember I conciously was trying to breath slower. I was aiming harder. I was really focused on not blowing it.

I shot the stages ok. Certainly not well enough to stake pride on - I basically played defensively. As it turns out, I won. And it felt great! But there was that hidden doubt. And that knowledge that when I was in contention I knew I behaved differently. It was concerning.

Fast forward and we're at Area 4 - again a number of years ago. First day was a good day. Second day was pretty darn good too. I was really starting to feel it. It was going to be my first Area match win, and I was really excited. Last few stages and the wheels started coming off. I started trying to duplicate what I'd been doing (instead of actually JUST duplicating what I'd been doing (the difference being trying)). I ended up losing to Matt Burkett by a few points. While I was overall pleased with my performance, I was dissappointed in not being able to pull it out.

The next year I was trying to get to the limited nationals. So I decided to go to Area 4 with my single stack .45 - a gun I recently talked about in another thread with regard to David Williams. The limited match that year had talent and I knew going in that a single stack was going to be a disadvantage. Maybe I'd almost given up. 3/4 the way through the match I began to realize I might be in this thing - but really I felt I was just hanging on so I just kept the game plan. I didn't expect to win limited - I was just hoping to place high enough to get my slot. So the match ends and I wound up winning. By a good margin - and I was surprised. It was a huge confidence builder. On top of that, I made the top 16 overall - something I hadn't anticipated doing. I was super stoked!

The mind works in wierd ways though. At Worlds in brazil I was again feeling like things were a little out there for me. I didn't know where I stood but I knew I couldn't win. I was astounded to find out, on the last day, that I was in 10th. That last day my mind changed and I slipped. Ended up 16th - primarily because I didn't have th confidence to do any more. I choked - plain and simple.

But my best story was the CA state stockgun championship. Again, the same ol' .45. A single stack against all the doubles. On the very first stage I completely forgot about a target so right from the get go I was 45 points down. The match goes on and as things progress I realize I'm actually shooting pretty well. Good competition and despite the first stage issue I'm still there. The thing that hooked me was my first reload on my last stage. I banged out a few targets and had to load - and I smoked that load. It was as good as I can remember. And I remember thinking "I'm good - just go for it" and that's what I did. That was the first time I ever started out way behind and came out with the W.

Mentally this game is brutal. It focuses on so many multiples that it is hard to conceive. I've loved this thread since I first read it though and since I've been in "shooting" mode perhaps it's seed has grown more than I anticipated. Sorry for the long post and the boring stories - but I like the dynamic this very thread brings to the surface. That it isn't tangible and, in reality, it isn't consistent. The question is a good one - how does one deal with winning when they are in position to win . . .

J

This post has been edited by j1b: 22 July 2007 - 02:26 PM

[XRe]

Great, great stuff, Jack....

I play with this stuff at local matches, with the intent of toughening up mentally. If I know (or suspect) I'm in the lead, I'll tell myself that, and really hype it... let the butterflies kick in a bit... and then focus on the next performance. I find I have to really bear down and focus to get it under control - but my performance seems to have an edge on it, where everything is solid and snappy. Finding that level of focus when I'm not in that sort of position is what I'm working at, now - how to kick it in the rear and get it going. And I find a tendency to overdo it, and that when I'm not in that "butterflies over contention" business, I do best when I just let it fly without over working the situation - I just make it worse when I do that. Its like, I have to rein it in when I start getting jumpy and giddy, and really direct that energy - but avoid smothering it when its not coming on full force like that....

I played with it some today, on the classifier stage, and failed to fully focus - and totally trashed the classifier for match score (one mike, one extra shot, one extra hit....) - I later reshot it at 100%, after the match. I needed to prove to myself that I could do that level of performance on that stage. I could blame the bad performance on a lot of things - waking up earlier than usual, shooting a new load, etc.... but those things shouldn't really matter if I'm doing my job.

I experience the highs and lows - but keep in perspective that everything changes, and highs will become lows, and vice versa. Experience what I have - and not try to change it, just use it for what its worth (for a lot of reasons). Enjoy the highs, enjoy the lows (yes, I said enjoy ), and keep an open mind, as much as I can.

Winning externally is always cool - winning internally is more satisfying, though. Doing both at the same time is, no doubt, the bee's knees, though, of course - I'd be lying if I said that wasn't so.

[benos]

Demetrio, on Jul 18 2007, 05:50 AM, said:

So, what do you do to control yourself when it seems to you that you are going to win a match, in order not to be negatively influenced with this perspective?

When you're not shooting, keep an eye on your mind. Get acquainted with your internal dialogue that just rolls along, unnoticed, all the time. There, in a state of inattention, we create all our future problems. When you notice a fear-based or trying-related thought, consciously - let it go. Just keep doing that. If you are going to think about the future, think about solid, positive things that you can do.

Make it your plan to start out each day that way. Wake up and immediately ask yourself: What am I going to do? Pay attention; keep an eye on my mind, is a good answer.

If you keep working with that you'll build a foundation to take a clean mind to each stage. What are you going to do? Shoot. What is shooting? "Read the gun," "call each shot," "let what you see dictate when you shoot," or whatever works best for you. You are not going to try anything. You are going to do what you've trained yourself to do.

The bottom line is that thoughts about the future deplete your mental energy if they are not related to what you can actually do.
be

[Dang It Dan]

Well, "D",

After reading all the replys, good as they are, you are probably still thinking just exactly how do "I" do it. The answer is, you have to deal with it in your own way. Sorry, that's the way it is. All of the suggestions here are really well thought out, but they only mean something to the author of that particular idea or suggestion, and some of what they say may apply to you, but I guarantee you that every one who has been in the position to win but blows it, thinks about it for a long, long time. During that period of time, each and everyone of them (us) will come up with something that will help themselves next time. And, you will too. Read, listen, think. Something will hit home for you if you work on it long enough.

[Sam]

Quote

Wake up and immediately ask yourself: What am I going to do? Pay attention; keep an eye on my mind, is a good answer.

Brian, that statement is so beautiful in it's simplicity that it is very easy to underestimate it's importance. Definately, I'll ask myself that if I wake up tomorrow morning.