[Jim Norman]

Ok,

We keep coming back to this question over and over.

All of us I think realize that the Combined Results are UNOFFICAL. However like so many others do, we also post the combined results.

Do we award prizes on this basis? No. Does anyone wind up with a bar tab on this basis? Likely.

So, what would be wrong with having the unoffical results posted? If I as a lowly A L-10 shooter "Beat" a M or GM Production shooter, I can feel that just maybe I am starting to understand course breakdown or maybe seeing the sights lift.

We aren't really providing anything new here. All the info is already posted. All we are doing really is putting it in a user friendly format.

If anyone wants to comment, please keep civil, but go ahead. I am obviously NOT a Professional Pollster. I tried to word this so it is not loaded.

Thanks

Jim

[AikiDale]

I like having the combined results, finals and all.
There ought not to be any arguments over them, they are as stated unofficial. Bar tabs in all fairness should be decided by Division with official results. Drinking is far too important to be left to the vagaries of an algorithm.

[mcb]

I love the combine results especial when shooting revolver. There might be only two revolver shooters at a match and it's nice to see were we stack up against all the rest despite the bucket we have one foot in.

This post has been edited by mcb: 15 May 2007 - 10:03 AM

[Brazos SC Shooter]

I like seeing how I compare to the whole field.

[Alan Meek]

Combined results are a good thing

[San_Esteban]

+1 to Dale's thoughts on Priorities

Later, Steve

[P.E. Kelley]

I my perfect world we would ONLY have combined overall and stage results. To be referred
to as match results.

From these match results, equipment choice and special category tags would delineate the winners of each division/category.

Why did we start separating out and compete only against those using the same
equipment? The answer if I recall was the starting of Limited division.

Before this (as many of you remember) awards went to the top competitors in order of finish.

Match directors (or USPSA headquarters) could award any “category” i.e. top lady, junior,
old gummer, cop, military, revolver, stock gun, etc. using only the match results.

Every competitor that wins now would have won then except for the “flip flops” that WE created.

If we had not started this we would have never known about “flip flops” so no one would
care.

In my perfect world we would still award multiple places in each division/category based on participation and overall finish via the match results.

One hit factor for every stage. One winner for every stage.

Multiple winners by overall finish based on match results.

Patrick

[Coach]

Overall results are nice to have when you do something well. The times you screw up they are not as nice. But it is always good to know where you stand.

[Hey QuicksDraw!]

Can someone explain what causes flip flop?

[Nik Habicht]

Hey QuicksDraw!, on May 15 2007, 02:51 PM, said:

Can someone explain what causes flip flop?

Stew,
you're shooting production, and win B class based off the hit factors of the high production shooter --- a Master who wins most but not all stages. In fact you win a stage in Production. In the overall results, the high hit factors are set by three different open and one limited shooters, which changes everyone's production point totals, (as the result of the new combined HHF) and causes the second "B" shooter to slip past you, rather than trailing just behind you.....

[IPSCDRL]

Nik Habicht, on May 15 2007, 04:59 PM, said:

Hey QuicksDraw!, on May 15 2007, 02:51 PM, said:

Can someone explain what causes flip flop?

Stew,
you're shooting production, and win B class based off the hit factors of the high production shooter --- a Master who wins most but not all stages. In fact you win a stage in Production. In the overall results, the high hit factors are set by three different open and one limited shooters, which changes everyone's production point totals, (as the result of the new combined HHF) and causes the second "B" shooter to slip past you, rather than trailing just behind you.....

A very good explanation Nick, however you didn't mention that it ONLY matters when you compare INTERIM stage results with final match results. The finals after everyones score has been entered are all that matter.

[AikiDale]

P.E. Kelley, on May 15 2007, 02:31 PM, said:

I my perfect world we would ONLY have combined overall and stage results. To be referred
to as match results.

From these match results, equipment choice and special category tags would delineate the winners of each division/category.
Patrick

My God man are you insane? That would be reasonable, fair and as it should be. Not to mention it would hurt my feelings if some bozo with a single stack .45 out shot me with my open blaster.

Seriously though, wouldn't that be like racing Formula 1, Stock and Funny Cars together?

[P.E. Kelley]

Seriously though, wouldn't that be like racing Formula 1, Stock and Funny Cars together?
[/quote]


Yea, wouldn't that be cool.

Depending on the track set-up (course design) any one of the cars (divisions) could win!

Patrick

[Scout454]

We had combined results up until the creation of L10 and Production. I still have match results from the mid to late 90's/early 2K with combined results. They went away somewhere between the Blue book and the Red book. Pity, it was encouraging to know that you whipped open shooters with a single stack. All of the clubs around here (VA) still post combined results.

[Alan Meek]

I fell that the Open Division results should be the overall combined. After all do not all guns meet the division requirements for Open?

Alan,

(Loves shooting Open, but Singlestack is a kick ass good time!!!)

[mcb]

Mini match example of a flip flop. I did this awhile ago on another forum but I thought it might help this thread.

Stage 1	160	Points Possible								Aggregate Stage 1	
Open									
				  pts	time	 HF	%	Match Pts			%	   Match pts
Shooter A		150	25	6.0000	100%	160.0		   100%	160.0
Shooter B		130	27	4.8148	80%	  128.4			80%	128.4
									
Production									
									
Shooter C		151	52	2.9038	100%	160.0		   48%	77.4
Shooter D		135	55	2.4545	85%	  135.2		  41%	65.5
									
									
Stage 2	80	Points Possible								Aggregate Stage 2	
Open									
				  pts	time	HF		 %	Match Pts		%	Match pts
Shooter A		76	10	7.6000	100%	  80.0		   100%	80.0
Shooter B		69	12	5.7500	76%		60.5		   76%	60.5
									
									
									
Production									
Shooter D		75	11	6.8182	100%	80.0			90%	71.8
Shooter C		70	13	5.3846	79%	  63.2			71%	56.7
														   
									
									
Overall Production									
						Match Points			
Shooter C						223.2			
Shooter D						215.2			
									
									
									
Aggragate Overall match Match					  Match points
Shooter A	Open									  240.0
Shooter B	Open									  188.9
Shooter D	Production								137.2
Shooter C	Production								134.1

I hope the formatting worked OK, coping from excel is iffy at best.

None-the-less here in our 2 stage mini match you can see that on stage 1 the Open guys blew the doors off the Production guys as far as HF went. Since match points for each stage are based on your HF% compared to the best shooter when we look at the aggregate match point for stage one shooter C (the best production shooter on the stage) he only got 77.4 point out of a possible 160.

Now on the second stage that was shorter, only 80 pts possible, the production guys are able to put up HFs closer to the Open guys. Shooter D is best in production and gets 71.8 points of the possible 80pts.

So when you look at the overall production match points shooter C wins production. He got all 160 pt in stage 1 and 56.7 in stage 2 where shooter D got 135 and 80 respectively.

But when you look at the aggregate scores shooter D is ahead of Shooter C. This is due to the fact that the both got there arses handed to them on the first stage by the open guys so neither of them got many point compared to the possible points. So in essence since the Open guys did so well on stage 1 it weighted the stage lighter for the production guys. When we looked at just production alone this stage contribute a lot more point to the production shooter than it did when we looked at the overall aggregate scores.

Hope that helps a little
mcb

[Alan Meek]

It is only a flip flop if you use the combined to award division placing and then run the division reports seperate

Alan

[MasterLefty]

Well, it looks like I am in the minority once again.

Once it was determined that each division was/is shooting a separate match, we should have removed the EZWinScore combine match feature.

Yes we all know that it's unofficial, but if you really want to see how you did again the other divisions run the factors manually, or get one of the palm scoring programs and enter you and all of your buddies in it, or even better sign up in open.

It's already been stated, but everything fits in open.


Kenny

[wgnoyes]

I've said this before; I'll say it again.....

Taran Butler shot the 2004 Area 6 3-gun Championship, registered as Tactical. He inadvertently went minor in pistol. Regardless of that, he STILL beat everyone in ALL other divisions, including Open.

THAT is the value that combined results give you.

[wgnoyes]

I did this once before for the uspsa forum.

You'll find a sample match file that illustrates flip-flops here:
 flipflop_match_demo.zip (105.02K)
Number of downloads: 1

A pdf of the printed results may be seen here:
 flipflopexample.pdf (36.65K)
Number of downloads: 2


Oh, and the match file was created with ezws2.29, but 3.01 will convert it for you when you open it.