[Exodus]

What is maximum range that steel is usually set at so that it can be consistantly knocked down? Our club has max shot size as #6 and I don't want to design a course that leaves steel standing by the majority of the shooters.

Thanks X

[Bronco]

Steel is a function of distance and choke choice. With cylinder bore I've seen steel at 15 yd. not go down, mod. choke will take steel set for minor at 30 + yd. Depends on how pissed off you want the open choke crowd to be.

[No.343]

I hope this is not a thread hijacking, but how heavy do you set them? I went to a match where the cylinder bore guys couldn't knock a popper down at 15 yards.

[bigbrowndog]

I think I went to that match, the problem is when people put on a match, and don't calibrate them. How heavy you set them, is the calibration. For fairness you really need to calibrate with cyl. bore, 18 or 20" barrel and appropriate ammo. Forward falling poppers "generally" eliminate the problem.

[Bronco]

Man Trapr I thought you let that go months ago. Redemption is only a month away. Ford SUV

[bigbrowndog]

Bronco, you have brought up a old wound, that had long been forgotten. THANKS ALOT I was actually refering to a different match that happened more recently, and I did not have a problem., but many others did, it actually got to the point that the RO said if you just hit the popper it will be OK, boy did I want a reshoot then, i'd have removed the tighter choke i'd used to insure popper downing, and hosed the crap out of the stage. See ya soon buddy.

Trapr

[Bronco]

You never know if a wound is completely healed unless you pick at it.

[M ammo]

bigbrowndog, on Apr 14 2007, 11:39 AM, said:

Bronco, you have brought up a old wound, that had long been forgotten. THANKS ALOT I was actually refering to a different match that happened more recently, and I did not have a problem., but many others did, it actually got to the point that the RO said if you just hit the popper it will be OK, boy did I want a reshoot then, i'd have removed the tighter choke i'd used to insure popper downing, and hosed the crap out of the stage. See ya soon buddy.

Trapr

That steal going down.. It wasn’t at one of my matches was it?

I Copperas Cove TX?

Some times the steel is hard to get down.

I do set up some Blind stages, in the woods that you have to read, a short description, and follow a path in the cider tree / bushes, marked by hanging colored tape,,, and knock the targets down.

I know I have a special place in hell, I’m going to, for some of the stages I come up with.
But I have the steel hanging, on swinger, type stands, the hanging plates are different sizes. And I put tee shirts over them. So you can find the target, in the woods, it has a shirt on it,, but a casual pop shot, may not get it to go down. They are light, and you can shoot them pretty close, if you run up on one, seeing they flip right back when you hit one.
It makes people have to get to know their Shotgun, and how it performs.
And get away from a thought that one shot will stop anything.


Jim M ammo

[bigbrowndog]

No Jim, it was not your match. However i've just returned from very nice match in U.K. that incorporates things that we here in the U.S. don't use. If you want to CHALLENGE your shooters, use no shoot steel, next to shoot steel just like we do with paper targets.

Generally, they are about 2 to 3 inches apart, sometimes they overlap, and the distances can be anywhere from 7 to 15yds away. This is done quite abit using plates.

Trapr

[M ammo]

bigbrowndog, on Jun 13 2007, 04:20 PM, said:

No Jim, it was not your match. However i've just returned from very nice match in U.K. that incorporates things that we here in the U.S. don't use. If you want to CHALLENGE your shooters, use no shoot steel, next to shoot steel just like we do with paper targets.

Generally, they are about 2 to 3 inches apart, sometimes they overlap, and the distances can be anywhere from 7 to 15yds away. This is done quite abit using plates.

Trapr

Interesting!!!!!

I have used no shoots, on a blind stage,, But I put cardboard open hands on them.

I'll have to play with the close together no shoot, thing.

thanks!

Jim M ammo

[Neil Beverley]

Below are a series of photographs from the 2005 British Open. We made the stage an unloaded start. This created 2 further pressures in that the intial few seconds focused the mind on loading and not the positioning of the targets and it created a pressure on how many to load, bearing in mind that competitors might aim off too much to be cautious. They could load the exact number of rounds for speed or one or two extras for safety. This sort of "messing with the mind" is a regular feature in UKPSA and IPSC Shotgun.

[Neil Beverley]

One other regular feature of UK matches is that we will push metal targets way out to say 35 yards and give competitors an opportunity to get up as close as they like (subject to minimum safety distances). However, we try to create a possible advantage by saving time by not getting close, often by presenting a more economic movement to another part of the stage.

We leave it to the competitor to know and understand their gun, their choking and their ammo. The competitor has to analyse how close they must get to successfully take the target against the background of the time cost.

We try to create an easy but time-expensive opportunity and a difficult but quick solution as well. I've seen many a shooter get caught with their trousers down by opting for the wrong choice.

Viva "freestyle"!

[M ammo]

Neil Beverley, on Jun 20 2007, 11:10 PM, said:

One other regular feature of UK matches is that we will push metal targets way out to say 35 yards and give competitors an opportunity to get up as close as they like (subject to minimum safety distances). However, we try to create a possible advantage by saving time by not getting close, often by presenting a more economic movement to another part of the stage.

We leave it to the competitor to know and understand their gun, their choking and their ammo. The competitor has to analyse how close they must get to successfully take the target against the background of the time cost.

We try to create an easy but time-expensive opportunity and a difficult but quick solution as well. I've seen many a shooter get caught with their trousers down by opting for the wrong choice.

Viva "freestyle"!

Decision making, and all that, How evil! I like It.

I have on occasion, had the shooter read the blind stage brief, with a lead in about you are on your way to the range and have come across a kidnapping in progress. Blaa blaa blaa.. the last line in the brief is “do you understand?”
Say yes.

They say yes and the buzzer goes off.!!!!!!!! Most are not ready. I see
All kinds of fun stuff, some folks just look at you,
Some folks have a box of ammo in their hand. And look at you like Hey aren’t you going to hold the box so I can load my gun?

But they get it sooner or later and they are all, Assholes and elbows!

Getting in gear and into the stage.

I like getting these new ideas. Thanks!!


Jim M ammo

[Exodus]

Neil Beverley, on Jun 21 2007, 01:10 AM, said:

One other regular feature of UK matches is that we will push metal targets way out to say 35 yards and give competitors an opportunity to get up as close as they like (subject to minimum safety distances). However, we try to create a possible advantage by saving time by not getting close, often by presenting a more economic movement to another part of the stage.

I drew this up as a concept course. Not exaclty how it would be set up. Shooter must stay within one "path" or the other. Is this along the lines of what you are talking about?

[bigbrowndog]

that looks like a good course of fire, however it would be simple to just choke down, what IPSC will do is, close to what you have there but then also penalize the guy that chokes down, by having closer targets that now require "aiming the shotgun". Throw in some close noshoot plates and it would definetly be better to get closer, and hit your target than take out 2 or 3 no shoots as well as needing to load more ammo.

Trapr

[Neil Beverley]

Exodus

You're thinking in the right direction. You have to be careful to not make the long-route so long that no-body takes its and opts for "living" with a possible penalty. However, that's something you have to work out on the day. The possibilities are huge and variations almost endless.

I've added below an example stage. We would set the no-shoots so as to be real tough from the back of the stage but easy enough from the front of the access "fingers". Likewise, the long distance shots would be marginal from the back but OK from the ends of the fingers. I've indicated the stage starting in the bottom left hand corner but even starting the stage in the back-middle could cause problems because of the distance of the targets on the far right and left.

Of course a stage like this would take up a lot of range space but I've been trying to convey concepts. In fact this layout isn't so far off from one of the stages of the British Open this year.

This post has been edited by Neil Beverley: 24 June 2007 - 03:56 AM

[Exodus]

Neil Beverley, on Jun 24 2007, 05:37 AM, said:

I've added below an example stage. We would set the no-shoots so as to be real tough from the back of the stage but easy enough from the front of the access "fingers". Likewise, the long distance shots would be marginal from the back but OK from the ends of the fingers. I've indicated the stage starting in the bottom left hand corner but even starting the stage in the back-middle could cause problems because of the distance of the targets on the far right and left.

By having so many "fingers" to back out of, aren't you creating a potential problem with the 180 rule? A 180 trap if you will. We have problems with lefties breaking the 180 going sideways in a right hand setup all the time. Usually newer guys, but still a problem. Ever since I had a police offier spin out of a barricade the wrong direction and sweep the entire crowd and point his loaded handgun right at my chest from 2 feet, I tend to be overly cautious when designing a stage.

WWSPD is my mantra when setting up a course.

This post has been edited by Exodus: 26 June 2007 - 10:55 AM