[Singlestack]

"A Perception without a Perciever, is a Response"

This one just wrapped my brain around an axle.

[Flexmoney]

Ouch.  My brain hurts.

[benos]

SS,
Thanks for the tag line response.
I know I'm being picky, but it was:
Perception without a perceiver is response.

[jhgtyre]

I don't think you are being picky.  By adding the two "A's" and the comma you change the meaning.  It is a subtle change and it probably means different things to each reader but it is a change.  With the "A's" added you are saying that perception and response are singular events.  Without the "A's" perception and response become states.

-jhgtyre

[Singlestack]

I find it humerous the way my brain works. I took a "Zen" phrase and made it something I could relate too. The "A's" and the comma make it (for me) easier to understand. This was a true "Fruedian" (sp) slip. There was no place I could look up the phrase and make sure I had it right, so I was working with how my mind had stored it.  

Thanks for reminding me BE. I won't forget it this time! :)

[benos]

That's one of my favorite things - to SEE how the mind actually works.
be

[Singlestack]

Oh, and by the way, I agree that there is a HUGE difference in the two statements.

[Singlestack]

One more thing.

I do not get your current tag line BE.

"How do you find what has never been lost?
Nothing must be understood"

[Flexmoney]

Discovery.

[benos]

Ss,
It's difficult to fathom the significance of the principle of realization. Understanding comes in mid-sentence.
be

[TDean]

"How do you find what has never been lost?
Nothing must be understood"

My interpretation of that quote is:
JUST GET TO THE SHOOTING!

If I put a dime on the table in front of you and said to you "find it".  You'd say "I don't have to find it, it's right in front of me"  

I relate this to overthinking a situation, as we sometimes do on a pistol stage.  Don't try to "find" relaxation, accuracy or speed.  Just do it, don't try to understand.

My brain works strange don't it Brian! (don't answer that...)

[jhgtyre]

TDean,

I really like the dime analogy.  I would add that the dime didn't have to be placed on the table it was always there.  But then again the dimes origins don't have to be understood.  :)

-jhgtyre

[TDean]

hmmmmm....

[Singlestack]

The logical side of me (also the predominate side) HATES Zen phrases. I have to struggle with every one of them. As soon as I read them I become annoyed because I don't understand. I have to chew on them for awhile.

I like things cut and dried. Straight lines. :)

[benos]

hmmm, can you say "SJ"
:)

[bonedaddy]

SS, chewing on them can be the fun part.  I experience the frustration too.  Then I usually arrive at some conclusion about what the phrase means.  It finally makes sense to me, but in reality, I probably don't get it at all.

So, we live and learn. Then we die and forget everything.  :)  

     -sam

[DogmaDog]

Hmmm...saw one somewhere:

"Zen tacos--the one taco to have when you're having more than not two"

But I digress.  "Nothing must be understood" could either mean that there is no thing that requires understanding, or it could mean that you must understand nothing(ness)...or both...or neither.  

I've understood this for a few instants while shooting in highpower rifle matches.  I haven't yet been carried into that state by a pistol, but I'm trying.  

Semper Fi,
DogmaDog

[TM262]

Zen phrases are like a never diminishing apple pie that is in the center of a round table encircled with an infinite number of people.  Everyone can see the pie, smell the pie and eventually taste the pie.  However, no one will know the pie like anyone else.  

Is the pie tasty?  

Knowledge is powerful, but acceptance is the key.  

[Flexmoney]

I like pumpkin pie.

[Flexmoney]

I think pumpkin pie tastes the best.  (therefore it does?)

[benos]

Who tastes what?

[jhgtyre]

Lets see if I get this.  

All sensory information about the pie has to pass through the filter of our senses and knowlegde of the pies nature has to pass through the filter of our conscious minds all of which affect our perception of the pie.  Furthurmore the infinite number of beings who are sharing in the experience of the pie all perceive the pie differently.  Lastly there may not really be a pie and there is no proof that the other beings exist.  Now I sound like a solipsist!

[Flexmoney]

"...my dog barks some.   Mentally you may picture my dog...but, I have not told you the type dog which I have.  Perhaps you picture ___?___"

[DogmaDog]

Man...this reminds me of the philosophy of science class I took.   "Philosophy of Space and Time", taught by this kinda frumpy, slightly youngish British woman.  "OK, now please read your text, 'Space, Time, and Spacetime"

AAAAAHHHHH!

Actually started to have weird thoughts about the professor during that one.  :o

DogmaDog

[Singlestack]

I finally understand what it is about "Zen Phrases" that drives me nuts. As soon as I read one, I try to understand what the person who wrote it is trying to tell me instead of trying to understand the phrase.

But then somebody came along and said "nothing must be understood"......