[shooterbenedetto]

If a shooter class is A and shot at the nationals and averages 86% to 93 plus.
does this mean he should be a master class? how do you know he is a sandbagger?
by shooting at the nationals will he be bumped up to master class if he shot this well.

[Shawn Knight]

shooterbenedetto, on Sep 12 2006, 06:11 PM, said:

If a shooter class is A and shot at the nationals and averages 86% to 93 plus.
does this mean he should be a master class? how do you know he is a sandbagger?
by shooting at the nationals will he be bumped up to master class if he shot this well.

Like this.

http://video.google....395692815641000

This post has been edited by theknightoflight: 12 September 2006 - 07:22 PM

[AikiDale]

shooterbenedetto, on Sep 12 2006, 10:11 PM, said:

If a shooter class is A and shot at the nationals and averages 86% to 93 plus.
does this mean he should be a master class? how do you know he is a sandbagger?
by shooting at the nationals will he be bumped up to master class if he shot this well.

From the USPSA Handbook:

Quote

Your performance in larger matches and tournaments may also be used to
help establish classification. Placement in a major event with a score above your
assigned class percentage may result in your being promoted to a higher class,
even if your current average is lower. Winning first or second in class at an Area
Championship or Major Tournament AND shooting into the next higher class will
result in promotion (except to Grand Master); winning High Overall in an Area
Championship will promote you to Grand Master class.

[Flexmoney]

Leave sandbaggers in your dust.

[Shawn Knight]

1

[AikiDale]

Flexmoney, on Sep 13 2006, 12:23 AM, said:

Leave sandbaggers in your dust.

Exactly. A sandbagger, by definition, is determined to be a loser. He has given up the hope of improving himself and takes a perverted satisfaction in maintaining his mediocrity. Let 'em.

[Pharaoh Bender]

Flexmoney, on Sep 12 2006, 11:23 PM, said:

Leave sandbaggers in your dust.

+100! Leave those goofbals in your dust! Let your practice and skills do all the talking.

[Grump]

Seems to me that a sandbagger determined to win just in a lower class will eventually get re-classified up anyway. So they get 1, 2, or 3 seasons in of "wins" against their inferiors--so what?

Me, I'm not so obsessed with winning to care. Seems to me that those most concerned with sandbaggers are equally obsessed with getting the "wins" in their own class. Both sides of that equation are gamey.

[al503]

Grump, on Sep 13 2006, 08:21 AM, said:

Me, I'm not so obsessed with winning to care.

x2. If I shoot to my ability (or close to it), I don't care if I come in DFL. That would just give me more incentive to practice/train harder.

[zhunter]

I have a friend that I shoot with, he is a total sandbagger. He likes to be a C shooter. He makes no bones about it.

Personally, I could give a Sh*t less if I win or finish 10th. I know when I have shot a good match,and that is all I care about.

On the other hand, I do want to get my A card. Although, I really don't think that shooting classifiers is a good indication of how good you really are. By this I mean, I think I can be classified in a certain class, but actually shooting to that level in a match might not be possible. Just my opinion, as classifiers are MUCH different than actual match stages.

[Wakal]

People sandbag, in my opinion, because of institutionally mismanaged prize tables.

Most major matches send the class winners to the table ahead of everyone else. Sooooo...a guy blows classifiers, or (for example) runs a solid A/Limited but shows up and changes to B/L10 on match day based on which "A" shooters show up for the match (although I have it on good authority that behavior like that is "hidey-bagged" and not "sandbagged" as such ).

As long as matches reward hiding out in sub-classified divisions, or allow people (like USPSA allows certain C and B ranked foreign shooters) to keep their low class despite high (as in "two classes above") finishes...the trend will continue.

That said, I was trained in the art of 'Don't shoot classifiers in some divisions" and "don't push classifiers" by some of the best in the sport. One of those nationally-renown experts in sandbagging (although a genuinely nice guy and long time friend), told me at a match in which I had shot a division in which I had avoided classifiers in like a politician avoids the truth...and managed to handily win my class and thus a very nice prize...that he was "...proud of me." I got my M card shortly thereafter

How to fix it, or at least reduce the rancor? Prize tables by order of finish. Trophies by class.


Alex

[bgary]

Quote

People sandbag, in my opinion, because of institutionally mismanaged prize tables.

People sandbag, in my opinion, because of prize tables. period.

It matters not how they are administered. If there is something of value on the table, it represents a financial incentive to cheat. And... someone will

B

[JFD]

I agree about the prize tables.

While not a sandbagger, I was pretty jazzed the day before the SC Sectional a few years ago because I was #2 on the C class L-10 top 20 list. The fact I wasn't a sandbagger became clear the morning of the match when I got moved up to B class Sometime L. Chico can be TOO efficient

I try not to pay much attention to sandbaggers, but it sort of jumps out when reviewing match results.

Prize tables will always be a problem IMHO. Whenever order of finish is mentioned, the next thing said by a lot of folks is "I'm not willing to finance the M/GM's prize table".

This post has been edited by JFD: 13 September 2006 - 02:12 PM

[Putty]

I have been called a sandbagger for being C class, but we dont shoot that many classifiers. Plus I have never won anything, so .....maybe we will change the current vernacular to fit the perpetrations.
Sandbagger: better than designated in order to win prizes. Understating ones strength in order to gain advantage. Usually A-class poseurs. <See narcissistic personality disorder or NPD>
Sandboogers: What you get in your nostrils when shooting area tournaments.
Sandlugies: What you spit out of your lungs at aforementioned tournies.
Sandhuggers: Liberals that think terrorism is right and just action.
Sandbuggers: People who rile sandbaggers about their cheatin'ways.
Sandhurst: Royal Military Academy.
Sandhappy: What Sandbaggers feel when they win prizes.
SandPappy: A poorly exectuted pap-smear or the Father of a Sandbagger.
Sandwiches: <see 4th Earl of:>
Sandanista: Socialist Nicaraguan Political Party whom in 1979 overthrew Somoza.
Sandgroupie: Followers and supporters of Sandbaggers. Clearly identified by the over-exuberant cheering when a sandbagger is called to the prize table. False bravado usually accompanied with squeaky flatulence.
Sandhandler: Sandbagger histrionics: like over exuberant hand shaking and self-congratulatory back patting when accepting awards/prizes to conceal their deep shame and guilt. <See NPD>
Sandstorm: Convection current weather phenomema.
Sand Sharks: lamniform sharks of the Altlantic Ocean. Not to be confused with land sharks (realtors/developers/lawyers).

[jhgtyre]

Sandoz, on Sep 13 2006, 02:23 PM, said:

I have been called a sandbagger for being C class, but we dont shoot that many classifiers. Plus I have never won anything, so .....maybe we will change the current vernacular to fit the perpetrations.
Sandbagger: better than designated in order to win prizes. Understating ones strength in order to gain advantage. Usually A-class poseurs. <See narcissistic personality disorder or NPD>
Sandboogers: What you get in your nostrils when shooting area tournaments.
Sandlugies: What you spit out of your lungs at aforementioned tournies.
Sandhuggers: Liberals that think terrorism is right and just action.
Sandbuggers: People who rile sandbaggers about their cheatin'ways.
Sandhurst: Royal Military Academy.
Sandhappy: What Sandbaggers feel when they win prizes.
SandPappy: A poorly exectuted pap-smear or the Father of a Sandbagger.
Sandwiches: <see 4th Earl of:>
Sandanista: Socialist Nicaraguan Political Party whom in 1979 overthrew Somoza.
Sandgroupie: Followers and supporters of Sandbaggers. Clearly identified by the over-exuberant cheering when a sandbagger is called to the prize table. False bravado usually accompanied with squeaky flatulence.
Sandhandler: Sandbagger histrionics: like over exuberant hand shaking and self-congratulatory back patting when accepting awards/prizes to conceal their deep shame and guilt. <See NPD>
Sandstorm: Convection current weather phenomema.
Sand Sharks: lamniform sharks of the Altlantic Ocean. Not to be confused with land sharks (realtors/developers/lawyers).

You forgot one:

Sandoz: Internet funny guy!

[tightloop]

Too funny....

[Azone41]

I have been C open for quite some time and all the guys (friends) were always calling me a sandbagger. When I would shoot a classifier I would normally shoot a solid C score. A couple of months ago I started shooting B class scores almost everytime and I have since moved up to B open. Classifiers are to be shot during a match and what you score is what you score, you should be able to deliver a score in your class when you are cold. I know lots of people that are classed much higher than thier ability because they shoot the classifiers over and over untill they get that perfect run (Grandbagging). I have no problem with going to B in fact I know that I can compete in B because I can deliver a B class score on demand because thats my true ability as of right now. I am now setting my sights on A class and I belive it will happen much faster then B did. I just shot my first over 70% classifier this month and I really felt good about that one.

[Steve J]

theknightoflight, on Sep 12 2006, 09:21 PM, said:

shooterbenedetto, on Sep 12 2006, 06:11 PM, said:

If a shooter class is A and shot at the nationals and averages 86% to 93 plus.
does this mean he should be a master class? how do you know he is a sandbagger?
by shooting at the nationals will he be bumped up to master class if he shot this well.

Like this.

http://video.google....395692815641000

Or like this... Classifier CM 06-03. Open Class. Don't recall the time, but it wasn't shabby. All shot groups were 3" or better.
T-1 five A's, one extra shot, one extra hit,
T-2 five A's,
T-3 five A's,
T-4 five C's (neatly grouped in lower area of C zone).

He's caught and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, but smile wryly.

[bayoupirate]

What's the opposite of a Sandbagger?

I always seem to have my absolute best performances on Classifiers.
Now I don't just mean against other club shooters, who may or may not be holding back.
I usually shoot a 12 stage match at about 65-70%, but I'm clasified as an A-Class shooter of 77%.????

What am I a BackSander???

P.S. - Our Prize table is visited by shooters in overall order of finish, by division. Let them sandbag themselves into a later visit of the prize table.

[al503]

bayoupirate, on Sep 14 2006, 02:09 PM, said:

What's the opposite of a Sandbagger?

In this sport, I believe it's "Grandbagger."

[michiglock]

I just don't like the thought of cheating myself.

[Scooter]

When I was doing collegiate cycling, one of the rival teams got a junior national champion in the Duathlon (running+cycling). He whooped our asses in the lower categories which he did not belong in. My teammates at one race found a huge pile of sandbags. So they piled up the sandbags around his car. At the next race, he was racing in the highest category and still won.

So if you find a pile of sandbags around and know a sandbagger...

[Intel6]

I think it is interesting to look at local match results and see 4 stages with 80+ percentages and one that is inthe 60's. Gee, can you guess which of the 5 stages was the classifier?

I have seen this from the same person more than once and everyone knows what the person is doing.

Neal in AZ

[Flexmoney]

Intel6, on Sep 14 2006, 10:35 PM, said:

I have seen this from the same person more than once and everyone knows what the person is doing.

Neal in AZ

You know who you are talking about. I don't (and don't care to).

But...from my experience and the shooters that I have seen, there is a great chance they are simply choking on the "dreaded classifier" stage.

[Matthew Mink]

Then there are shooters who are rising thru the ranks extremely fast and the classification system never seems to catch up to them until they top out.