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.243 Win/ai Vs. .260 Rem/ai


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#1 Religious Shooter

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 12:58 AM

I've noticed lately that a number of the hot rocks are moving to or getting .243 Win/AI --- Voigt, Gardner (used one in SHC?), Burkett, etc. They aren't getting using .260 Rem/AI.

Why?

Better ballistics?

Better barrel life?

Lower recoil?

Does it have enough terminal energy/power for long range steel?

Why?

Why not 6MM Remington if the .243 bullet(s) (assuming that it is) are better than the .260's?

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#2 Dan Sierpina

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 04:40 AM

Very likely the difference in case length. The 6MM Remington case is based on the 7x57 Mauser, making it bordline for the short action, especially with 107 grain bullets. Another reason might be as simple as brass availability, or the amount of powder used. Steepening the shoulder angle should give better barrel life, regardless of the case. At least that's the theory behind the Turbulence Point.
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#3 101abn11b

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 07:02 AM

243 with a high b.c. bullet and approx. 3200 - 3400 mv has a ballistic path better than a 338 lapua with no recoil in a short action package , huge differance in ukd and the wind , barrel life straight from GAP is less than 900 rds with a std 243 not the AI

#4 Bret Heidkamp

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 07:26 AM

As a 260AI shooter, I would not want to go any smaller. The 6.5 is tougher to spot a hit on steel at 1K that doesn't react vs. a 300 class. I can't imaging shooting my 6 - that's such a little poof of grey that some inexperienced RO's are going to call a miss regardless. (and I shoot 105's in the 243).

The 6.5 is a joy to shoot. The .6+ actual BC on the bullets have significantly less wind drift than anything I've ever shot before. I don't have any LaRue targets, but Burkett has mentioned before that a 6.5 is the minimum to reliably take over a LaRue at 1K. Too bad we don't get to see more of those expensive targets.

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#5 XRe

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 07:35 AM

Burkett has mentioned before that a 6.5 is the minimum to reliably take over a LaRue at 1K.


And he's now shooting a .243 w/ DTAC 115gr bullets at those same matches, so.... ;) 30% less wind, 13 feet less drop than .308 at that yardage, and no recoil... or so he tells me ;)
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#6 dogdoc

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 07:35 AM

The .260 is a 6.5mm, not 6mm, it is a short action. Alot of shooters were going to the .260 AI but are switching back to straight .260. George at GAP is shooting a standard .243 with a 115gr bullet.

The whole AI premise is to increase case capacity by raising the shoulder of the brass. So you get higher velocities. Not to mention you have to fire form the brass, which obviously uses barrel life, and you have to buy very expensive custom reloading dies.

There is a better bullet selection, weight and bullet type, with the .260 than the .243. Terminal velocity is better with the heavier .260 bullets, but the .243 is capable of the job 99% of the time.

Edited by dogdoc, 17 July 2006 - 07:36 AM.

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#7 M118LR

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 01:07 PM

As was mention before the 243 is a good caliber. GA George's shoots like a LASER, but he also said it has a very short barrel life. I guess if you had money to keep rebarreling your rifle, then the 243 is the way to go.

But I think the 260 rem would be a better choice. You will have a little more barrel life from this caliber than the 243. It would also depend on the load.

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#8 Bret Heidkamp

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 01:54 PM

I don't know if I'd want to go the 243 and DTAC route. I've been very pleased with George's work on my 260. The 260 handily beats a 308 also, with more down range punch. I would be interested in hearing if 243's are taking down LaRue targets at 1K... not that I'll ever get a chance to shoot any... just curious, because that was the argument against the 243 previously (what changed?).

My fire forming loads shoot under an MOA anyway - great for practice, I have different dope sheets for them, so no real "barrel life" issues there, in my opinion. If that's a concern, get a cheap barrel chambered for it and use it for fireforming. Also, at the same time get a second match barrel made so you can just change them and keep shooting.

I've got close to 1K through the 260AI right now, and no throat erosion yet (I have a borescope, so this isn't a guess).

I'm getting 3" groups at 800 yards easily, and if I get sloppy they open up to about 5" Best ever out of this rifle was 1 3/8" at 700. But I don't shoot for groups very much, mostly bang steel.

I really can't think of a drawback to this caliber.

FYI Terry Cross is still using it, he's pretty much the one that convinced me to go with it, and I've not been dissapointed with his recommendation or GA's workmanship.
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#9 uscbigdawg

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 03:09 PM

Mostly due to fire-forming alone, I wouldn't run a wildcat for MOR. Just a headache. I was all set to build a rifle up in 260, but then did some homework on the 243. Just worked out better for me. It has more than enough umph to get out to 1k and with the 115 DTAC's, you're solid on Larue's.

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#10 M118LR

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 05:02 PM

There is no question that the 243 with the 115 DTAC is a good set-up. Like I said GA George's set-up shot like a LASER. At a match that I was at that he shot in he won the 1000 yard shoot off in HIGH winds. They fired five shots at a Laure target at 1K. The winds were running about 15 to 20 mph. He hit 4 out of 5 at that distance. But I also talk to him at great length about barrel life and he said it would be short. It was just something he was messing around with.

Also many of the Laure's that were used at the match were the ones that hang on a chain. They were not the ones that you hit and they good down. All you had to do was RING steel. B)

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#11 Bret Heidkamp

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 07:30 PM

Cool, thanks for the info!
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#12 Religious Shooter

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 06:58 PM

Well Shawn Carlock won the MOR match at the Nationals with a .260. He beat Voit (had extractor problems) and Burkett with their .243's.

.260's won the SHC and the USPSA MOR match. I'm thinking the .243's just don't have a distinct advantage over the the .260's. It's still the monkey behind the trigger that makes the difference.

I had fun at the match. If USPSA MOR side-matches at the Nationals (or even with the local clubs) continue with the same format as the one in Albany I don't think there really is much of an advantage with the .260 or .243 over a .308 in USPSA MOR. (NOTE: I'm not saying the .243/.260 series wouldn't have an advantage in the other matches and formats.)

I'm gonna stick with .308. Just easier (cheaper) to live with.

Interesting thing about the .260, overheard Carl Carbon being asked how many rounds he and Carlock were getting out of their .260's. He said something like "Oh... about 4000 rounds." That's not too bad. About 2-4 years worth of shooting for me.

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#13 SHAWN CARLOCK

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:38 AM

The 260 has every advantage over the 308. Take the courses at this years MOR Nationals. You could not spot your misses if you had them. The wind was gusty. You could walk rounds into the wind until you hit a target but that was slow. The 260 drifts almost exactly 1/2 as much in the wind as the 308. I believe that mechinical advantage in windage is worth alot. The 260 vs. 243/115gr is kind of a wash balisticaly. Barrel life will be quite a bit shorter in the 243. Most guys will be happy with either the 243 or the 260, I would stay away from the AI version of either, I don't believe that the small performance gain is worth the trouble.
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#14 Mig

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 07:53 AM

... I would stay away from the AI version of either ...

Shawn,

Could you expand on your statement above? Congrs. on your MOR victory
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#15 Religious Shooter

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:04 PM

The 260 has every advantage over the 308. Take the courses at this years MOR Nationals. You could not spot your misses if you had them. The wind was gusty. You could walk rounds into the wind until you hit a target but that was slow. The 260 drifts almost exactly 1/2 as much in the wind as the 308. I believe that mechinical advantage in windage is worth alot.

Are you saying that a .308 user would not have been able to spot their misses due to recoil? How about with a compensator?

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#16 George

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 10:00 PM

A muzzle brake rocks the house on an MOR rifle. Can't call your own hits/misses without one. Shawn mills his into the bbl. I use a JP tank type. I push a 135er at 2850fps from an 8.5lb rifle! What recoil?
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#17 kimel

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 10:14 PM

I think Shawn is saying that at this year's USPSA Nats MOR we had the big white backer boards so you couldn't spot your misses until you were a couple feet off either side or over the target.

I don't think you could have spotted your misses well even with a .50 BMG.

There was considerable grousing about that problem and Shawn had a good solution which I hope will be utilized next year.
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#18 George

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 10:49 PM

Yeah, there was no miss spotting to be had at all on the LD stage (12) due mostly to the heavy grass. This was true for the MOR and for the main match at this stage.

On stage one, even though the ground would indicate your miss with impact dust, you had to be a country mile off to see miss impact because of the white backers Kimel mentions.

I know the iron sight shooters are helped by these, but I still prefer fluorescent orange painted steel and no backing, like RM3G does (and as we do now at our local matches).

IMHO the biggest issue with the steel rifle targets this year was the R&R design which allows a heavy caliber hit anywhere on the masker plate to activate the flasher enough for misses to be called as hits. I know this for a fact from stage one of the MOR match. I watched through the scope as my own splatter appeared on the black masker plate about 2 inches below the visible shoot part. I then saw the flash card activate and heard the RO call it a hit. I shut my mouth, took the freebie and moved on to the next position reet' quick ;-)

I much prefer pendulum style rifle steel without any non-scoring masker plate in front of it as it takes any caliber with no false/positives and no possibility of sending a fast follow-up shot skipping over the berm as the target leans back from the first shot. MGM flashers all the way at our club for LD rifle steel now, mostly for the last reason stated ;-/

BTW Kev, what did Shawn propose for fixin' the visible miss issue?
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#19 Religious Shooter

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 11:18 PM

Basically make the backing smaller. As Voight said you still probably won't see the shot that misses by 1". But you will see the one that is 1' off.

The backing on stage 1 killed me.

Cheryl C mentioned the orange paint. Voit asked how long they lasted on the target and from what I could Cheryl kind of shrugged as in they don't last on the target face as long.

I also think that the MGM type flashers work the best. But I think it's just a matter of the club not having enough resources. I believe that most of the long distance rifle targets in Albany were "donated" by R&R. I don't think that the Albany club has/had much in terms of rifle flashers.

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#20 George

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 11:29 PM

R&R makes a pendulum style flash target that is every bit as good as the MGM one.

The orange paint needs re-painting per squad at the max. At our club we have a limited size 200 yard bay so we use 4 flashers and just re-engage them from 3-5 positions so each flasher gets up to 30+ hits per squad. Even after that level of abuse the last shooter in a squad still has a predominately orange target. At 10-12 hits per target, per squad, it should be a non-issue.

Using Rustoleum brand paint (not the ground marking spray crap) and giving it 10 minutes drying time makes a huge difference. We just have the finishing squad go out and paint as their last duty. This allows for plenty of drying time to the next squad. The ground marking stuff never dries and blows off the face of a target so fast it ain't funny. This may be why some folks think orange paint is a loser ;-/
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#21 SHAWN CARLOCK

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 05:52 AM

About the spotting misses. I was saying when you can't effectivle spot those misses the 260 is an advantage because the allows twice the error of a 308 and still hit the plate. If you miss a wind condition and just hit the very edge of a plate with a 260 the 308 would have missed the edge by 4 or 5 inches. Thi syear no one could spot their misses, this made knowing how to dope and setup for the variable wind conditions what the stage was all about. What I suggested and have done myself in the past is to put an IPSC noshoot with no head behind the plate and paint the splash guard white. This leaves a white rectangle around the black plate with a border of 4 inches around the plate. If the background is dirt you can most of the time see bullet impact splash out from the side of the no shoot. The thing to do is to shoot an iron sighted rifle at them and trim down the backer as small as posssible but still have good definition for the iron sighted guys.

About staying away from the AI versions. My personel feeling is that fireforming brass is a pain in the ass. For me I just don't think it is worth the relatively small performance gain. I would much rather throw factory 260 brass in my Dillon pump it out and practice more. There is no doubt thet the AI version has more velocity I just don't think it is worth the trouble. It is not like it is a performance gap like the 260 vs 308 if it was I would do it in a heatrbeat

Muzzlebrakes, a must for most MOR matches ( some other matches don't allow them ). With a brake it is quite easy to watch you hit or miss and shooting multiple targets from one position is much smoother especially from a simi supported position.

R&R targets - I made a sepperate splash guard frame to isolate the guard from the target frame it works great.

Edited by SHAWN CARLOCK, 17 August 2006 - 05:54 AM.

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#22 kimel

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Posted 17 August 2006 - 07:13 AM

I was lucky enough to pull an R&R flasher off the prize table at A1 and have done some playing around with it and learned a few things.

If you don't stake it down every hit on the splash guard will make it rock. If you stake it down SOLIDLY this is much less of an issue. On Stage 1 at the 3G Nats they were working in loose fill and had to dig the plates into position. I doubt it was possible for them to stake them solidly. On Stage 2 we were working on more compact fill and were able to stake more effectively but a couple of the flashers weren't as solid as I would have liked...but there wasn't a solution available.

The flash card bracket can be bent to adjust the flasher. If you bend the bracket such that the top of the card is just about touching the backer plate a false hit won't be called as often. I know on Stage 2 all of our flash cards were right down at the splash guard. Don't know about any of the other stages.

I also think the flasher card is too big. Cutting an inch or two off the top of the card would gain a bunch of lee way although then the complaints about hits splashing off the plate not being called.

I know at least two competitors were using 40 gr bullets on Stage 2. One told me beforehand and the other I asked after the shooting was over. I don't care how solid you whack those plates with a 40 gr bullet but they aren't going to flash very much. Even 55 gr hits were harder to call unless they were SOLID hits.
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