35 replies to this topic

[midvalleyshooter]

I was looking thru a sales flyer and saw the Kalashnikov 12 ga shotgun. It has detachable magazines that hold 5 rounds. I am curious if anyone has ever fired one or seen one in competition? Do you think one of these would be competitive in 3 gun in either limited or open?

Keith

[Erik Warren]

Might that be a Saiga by another name? AK-47 design.

A local shooter had one that wouldn't run. I think it started running when he started using heavy/hot loads. He has always had trouble reloading the mags; they don't drop free and slip right in like pistol or AR-15 mags. He has to yank them out and rock them in.

If they could be reloaded as fast as an AR-15, I'd ask that they be allowed only in Open division, not Limited.

[Flexmoney]

If they could be reloaded as fast as an AR-15, I'd ask that they be allowed only in Open division, not Limited.

Why?  

[Storm]

I would think a detachable magazine would be equivalent to a speedloader. Speedloaders are specifically disallowed in Limited shotgun.

[Flexmoney]

So what?  Could be a better mouse trap.  

Rules stiffle innovation.  Competition filters out what works and what doesn't.

   

(TDean, is there an iconocode for someone stirring the pot?)

[Storm]

That's why they have open class. ;) Except for 170mm magazine length limitations for handguns and 11 round limitations for shotguns, pretty much anything goes.

Maybe we should get rid of everything except open.  How's that for stirring the pot? :)

[kellyn]

Only an open class!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Omigod!!!!!!!!!!!!  I think that would go over like a led zeppelin.  No place for iron sights!!!  Only the guys with pre-ban 15 rd.+ magazines could be competitive in shotgun (not as easy to manufacture a post-ban 15 rd shotgun tube as a "post-ban" pistol mag).   Everyone would have to shell out $6,000 to be competitive in 3 gun.

That being said, I disagree with Erik and Storm.  If the mags hold less than 8, they should be limited legal.  A magazine is not a speedloader. Limited class does not equal no innovation.  I know some very good 3 gunners who are considering using a kalishnikov shotgun solely to have the advantage of detachable box magazines. We'll see.

[midvalleyshooter]

Upon further reveiw of the ad, the shotguns are made by Saiga and are based on the Kalashnikov action.

The mag release does appear to be the funky slow AK type. I don't know the 3 gun rules vey well, but the guns look limited to me Gee now if we can just weld a couple of 5 rounders together and get an 8 round big stick

Erik did you notice if the gun appeared to recoil much with the heavy loads?

By the way these are priced around $300 and there is a 22" barreled model that comes with 3 chokes.

Keith

[Storm]

Kelly-I was kidding about only having an open division. But, you illustrated my point perfectly. Flex has complained numerous times that limited division rules stifle competition. Well, there's a reason it's called limited division. It has limitations. If someone wants fewer limitations, they should come over to the dark side where there are fewer rules.

I also agree that limited class should not equal no innovation. As long as the innovation is within the rules, great. Sometimes the rules create the innovation. Look at many of the major racing organizations. Every time they implement rules to slow things down, folks find creative ways to increase speed. The rules keep things interesting. Long wide dustcovers, tungsten guide rods & etc. are all creative ways to get an advantage while remaining within the rules.

Finally, I'm not necessarily against detachable magazines in Limited. But, I would consider them to be a speedloader. The question is, what will NROI consider them? If they say they're legal, fantastic. It just means somebody found a way to be innovative.

[Carlos]

Not sure who this guy was who had reliability problems, but he likely forgot to read the owners manual; the Saiga has a two position adjustable gas system for light or heavy loads. Every Saiga I have seen at the range has run 100% (like all AKs). I know the .410 Saigas (not legal for USPSA b/c min bore is 20) used 10 shot mags - and they are made for the 12 Saiga, just not sure if they are imported.  The assault gun ban rules are different for shotguns than for rifles - just not sure if they ever will import the 10 rounders - or even an 8 for LTD class use.

As for the mag release, I recall somebody in SGN advertizing an extended release that allowed one to drop an AK-47 mag using the index finger without taking your hand off the pistol grip (note: no pistol grips allowed on the Saiga). Still, there are ways around the problems of a stock Saiga (if we had given up on the 1911A1 due to "design problems", where would we be today?). I think the Saiga could be an excellent platform for an IPSC shotgun and no, it should not be bumped into open just for having a magazine.  Open is also about dot sights and clamshells as well as speedloaders.

[Erik Warren]

Allowing detachable box magazine fed shotguns in Limited division is like allowing detachable box magazine fed pistols in Revolver division. But with a more pronounced difference.

[midvalleyshooter]

Erik I understand your point, and it has merit.

But man, A semiauto 12 gauge with a detachable mag and 3 chokes for $300 based on the sturdy Kalashnikov? That sounds ideal for limited, if they will hold up to the beating we give the scatterguns with the slugs.

Keith

[jhgtyre]

To me it seems that the question is:

Does a shotgun with a detachable magazine have the same tactical advantage as a shotgun used with speed loaders?

I would have to think it does offer the same tactical advantage.  If you can get mags that hold 8+ then it seems like even more of an advantage.

[midvalleyshooter]

A search on google turned up this link: http://kalashnikov.g...u/posts/35.html

I also found that 8 round mags are out there: http://matrix.dumpsh...n/saiga12k.html

Keith

(Edited by midvalleyshooter at 1:55 pm on Feb. 13, 2002)

[TeamGE]

I tried to get one of the Siaga shotguns two years ago. I thought it was a viable idea to try, but could not get one in time for the new gun laws that came to be. Now, here in California, we can no longer buy a shotgun that has a detachable magazine, state law.

The 5 round magazines I saw where at least 6 inches long, and made of plastic. If 8 or 10 round mags are avaliable now, they must be at least 10 or 11 inches long. That would seem to be a hand full to manipulate.

I would have to call a box magazine an ammo feeding device, or reloading device, (a.k.a. Speed Loader) and make it an Open Class item only. Limited Class calls for the hand loading of shells, no speed loaders.

[Flexmoney]

...never mind.





(Edited by Flexmoney at 9:34 pm on Feb. 13, 2002)

[midvalleyshooter]

And Federal law prohibits any detachable mags over 5 rounds or pistol grips in a semiauto shotgun.

Keith

[Phil Dunlop]

Sorry to drift the thread, but I thought the Bush administration was going to change all that.
Have they been too busy or was I misinformed?
thanks P.D.

[Carlos]

Hey Phil! Not sure what promises were made pre-election. What do you have? I know that the so called "assault weapons" ban and the general ban on manufacture of new magazines with capacity over 10 rounds are both supposed to sunset - its someplace in (I believe) section 922®, might be part of 18 U.S.C. I thought that even Bush indicated that he would sign a permanent re-authorization of the assault weapons ban.  

But if nothing is done, I believe both proposals are due to expire (perhaps 2003 or 4??). Anyone have a copy of the code handy? I am not holding my breath on either provision lapsing; I think the bans will be here to stay, I'm sorry to say. D.

[Phil Dunlop]

Thanks Carlos,
I don't have any specifics, just the impression we were given that with Bush there was light at the end of the tunnel.  I'm only talking shooting politics here.
For the rest of the world a US election victory for shooters was a huge relief given, in our case, a socialist government.
I hope your 10rd mag rule is overturned.
P.D.

[Carlos]

No problem! (brace for thread drift) Phil are you in the UK? I thought I saw an emphasis on IPSC shotgun over there since they banned all powder burning handguns? Are there any magazine, stock or barrel restrictions on scatterguns over there? D.

[Phil Dunlop]

I'm a Welshman living in exile in New Zealand.
Last time I checked short barrelled shotguns<24" were restricted weapons though semi auto capacity was only limited for 'game' shooting in the UK
In NZ semi shotguns and rifles are restricted to 7 in the mag or subject to registration, extra security, good reason etc. The guns OAL must be greater than 762mm (about 30")
They have been trying to bring in registration of all firearms here, but the Kiwis have resisted brilliantly and the legislation is in limbo.

[FayettevilleFatKid]

How can a under $500 dollar shotgun, based off of a over 50 year old rifle design(which would be classed limited), mass produced in an arguably 2nd world country be considered an open gun.  My understanding of the concept of limited class was not to eliminate specific features, but to use functional, easily obtainable real world designs.  I can understand that a detachable magazine shotgun seems to be a radical idea, but bolt action shotguns have used box magazines since before the Kalishnikov was invented.  To my mind, the question has always been, why are we still using a semiauto weapon with the cartridge feed system of my '86 Winchester....  

[jhgtyre]

The problem is that speedloaders make a shotgun open class because they offer a significant advantage over the "traditional" method of loading a shotgun one shell at a time.  A magazine fed shotgun might offer the same advantage.

On a related note there is a detachable magazine system now availabe as a retrofit kit for some pump guns and it does give 10 rounds but in a drum.  There are also straight mag variants that hold 6 rounds.  Apparently the ban on more than 5 rounds excludes pump guns.  For anyone interested in this thing go to http://www.knoxx.com...sidewinder.html

-jhg

[FayettevilleFatKid]

I understand that speedloaders relegate a shotgun to open class.  However, speedloaders are either used to load a magazine or a revolver cylinder.  This gun simply uses a detachable box magazine as opposed to a tubular fixed magazine, so the speedloader argument would only be valid as a method to protect the traditional, and obviously outdated device(I say that because who would consider using a rifle with a fixed tubular underbarrel mag????).

Please understand that I am simply stirring the pot, however, I can see no reason, other than "we've always done it this way" to force this gun into open status.  I agree that a box magazine might offer a significant advantage, just as a semi does over a pump gun.....