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Legal Safariland Gear For Idpa Matches


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#1 benos

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 11:58 AM

To help me answer "is it legal" questions from new IDPA shooters, I was wondering if anyone could help me as to whether specific Safariland holsters and mag pouches are legal in IDPA competition.

I was thinking "yes," "no," or "maybe," answers, depending on how its worn, would help me quite a bit for the following products.

HOLSTERS:

560 (Paddle)
561 (Belt loop)
5182 (Paddle)
5186 (Belt loop)

MAG POUCHES:

81 (Single Pouch - most popular)
074 (Single Pouch - seldom sold)
079 (Double Pouch - most popular)
572 (Double Pouch - seldom sold)

Thank you,
be
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#2 vincent

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 12:44 PM

The only reference I see to Safariland in the rulebook is:

The Safariland model 5183, Wilson Combat Practical and the De Santis Pro Fed typify pouch style holsters that meet IDPA criteria.

I would think that the 5186 would then also be OK as long as the spacers were installed in a manner that met the other IDPA holster requirements.

The 560 and 561 are sold by Wilson Combat and they are listed as "Meets I.D.P.A. Criteria" on that website.
http://www.wilsoncom.../l_adjuster.asp

Edited by vincent, 28 February 2006 - 12:52 PM.

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#3 ChuckS

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 01:05 PM

Hey Brian,

The 5182 used to be on the list. I think that a couple of the measurements can violate the rules depending on where you do them. When I get home I will take a look at it again. I seem to recall (loose definition of recall) that the front cut was just a hair deeper than 1 3/4" below the bolt face on my SA 1911. I'll let ya know.

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Chuck

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#4 benos

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 07:14 PM

Thanks so far. I wonder if, since Wilson's holster that looks just like Saf's 560 is called "The Adjuster" - if it's legal and Saf's 560 might not be?

A customer asked me if I knew if the 079 pouch was legal, if it covered 2" of the mag? I couldn't answer. But I figured someone here would be all over it.
be
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#5 JD45

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 07:39 PM

Thanks for bringing this up, Benos. Quite a few IDPA members are having to buy new holsters since the changes.

I'm buying new stuff soon, and I need a rig that will satisfy IDPA rules and also fit into USPSA singlestack division.

#6 ChuckS

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 07:39 PM

Photographic evidence of the 079 and 081 being "legal".

I put a mag into an 079 and drew a mm line on it where it meets the pouch. The second picture shows the results. I also put the same mag into an 081 and you can see that it seats deeper than in the 079. Should be cool with IDPA.

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#7 ChuckS

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 08:00 PM

Brian,

As I promised earlier, here is the scoop on the 5182. The IDPA rulebook says:

"H. Cutting of the front edge of the holster more that 1¾” below the breech face on pistols"

on page 34. The photo attached shows my SA SS in my 5182 with the ruler at the lowest point of the front cutout. Look at the ruler! Is shows that the cut is too deep by about 0.050". Competitive advantage? Probably not but if you got one of those *&^* types of MD/SO you could have an issue. Caveat Emptor...

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#8 benos

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 02:24 PM

Thanks Chuck!

Anyone know anything on the 560 or the 561?
be
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#9 Clay1

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 02:52 PM

The photos didn't copy over so that is why the text looks funny in a couple of spots. The real issue is that one holster might be legal on one body type and not legal on another body type as far as measurements go. It is hard to say that a particular holster is legal, it is about the individual shooter and which specific gun. The following is cut and paste from the rule book:

"C. Holsters.
Effective April 15, 2005, the IDPA “Approved Holster List” is no longer in effect and holsters previously listed are NOT necessarily approved for IDPA competition.
The two primary reasons for this are:
1. Some holster companies have constantly changed the specifications of some holsters and several holsters originally approved have been changed into non-approved configurations.
2. In most cases, MDs and SOs do not have holster catalogs or samples and are rarely “holster experts.” Therefore it makes enforcement of an approved holster list very difficult.
A legal IDPA holster MUST fall within one of the following four categories AND meet all criteria following.
1. Categories of Concealed Carry Holsters
A. Inside the Waistband (IWB) Style.

IWB on body IWB front IWB back
This design carries the handgun inside the pants and belt and typically has a hook or loop that attaches to the belt on the outside of the holster. This design carries the handgun the closest to the body of all designs and is ideal for wear with a short tail jacket or vest. It usually carries the handgun with the muzzle rearward (rearward cant). The tension on the handgun is regulated by belt tightness. The Milt Sparks Summer Special and the Galco Royal Guard typify this design. ALL VERSIONS OF THE IWB STYLE HOLSTER ARE APPROVED FOR IDPA COMPETITION.
B. Pancake Style.

Pancake on body Pancake front Pancake rear
This design is made from two separate flat pieces of leather stitched together with belt slots on either side of the “pouch” that holds the handgun. This style pulls the handgun close into the body as the belt is tightened and is very concealable and secure. Pancake-style holsters are normally the most comfortable and concealable holsters. They are worn on the outside of the belt and usually carry the handgun muzzle rearward (rearward cant). The Galco Combat Master, Dillon Master and De Santis Speed Scabbard typify this design. ALL VERSIONS OF THE PANCAKE STYLE HOLSTER ARE APPROVED FOR IDPA COMPETITION.
C. Bruce Nelson/Askins Style.

Bruce Nelson on body BN front BN rear
This design has a belt tunnel on the back and a belt slot at the rear to pull the butt of the handgun into the body for better concealment. Tension on the handgun is usually created by a tight molded fit and/or tension adjustment. Most Bruce Nelson style holsters feature a re-enforced band around the top which facilitates easy one handed holstering and they usually carry the handgun vertically (neutral cant). The Sparks BN, Bianchi Askins Avenger and Dillon LTD. typify this design.
NOTE: Virtually all brands and variations of the three styles listed above that fully cover the trigger guard are suitable for continuous wear, concealed carry and therefore suitable for IDPA competition.
D. Pouch Style.

Pouch style on body Pouch front Pouch rear
This design features a “pouch” that holds the handgun and usually has a separate backpiece attached to the back of the “pouch” which attaches the holster to the belt. This “backpiece” can either be a belt tunnel, belt slots on either side of the “pouch” or a paddle that slides inside the pants. This design is often manufactured of synthetic materials and is normally the least concealable of the four styles listed here. Tension on the handgun is almost always created with a tension adjustment screw. Most pouch style holsters carry the handgun vertically (neutral cant). This style, while suitable for concealed carry, in many instances also lends itself well to competition use. Many pouch style holsters on the market are NOT suitable for IDPA competition. The Safariland model 5183, Wilson Combat Practical and the De Santis Pro Fed typify pouch style holsters that meet IDPA criteria.
Probably one of the most popular pouch style holsters is the current variation of the Uncle Mikes Kydex holster which is NOT suitable for concealed carry or IDPA competition due to its offset backpiece, which results in excessive offset from the belt/body.
2. Criteria of an IDPA Approved Holster
Holsters:
A. Must be designed for concealed carry and suitable for all day continuous wear.
B. Must be worn on a standard belt of no more than 1 ¾” width that must pass through the belt loops on the shooter’s pants.
C. Must fully cover the trigger of the firearm.
D. Must carry the firearm in a neutral (vertical) or muzzle rear cant, but have no adjustable cant backpieces. Holster cant that is adjustable by removing bolts and repositioning the backpiece is allowed. Exception: IWB style holsters do not have to meet this particular criterion.
E. Must hold the firearm with enough tension to allow the wearer to complete normal daily tasks without fear of losing the weapon.
F. Can have no offset backpieces and/or belt slots. The holster may not offset away from the belt and/or body. No gap is permitted in the following areas:
1. From the body to the inside of the belt.
2. From the outside of the belt to the inside of the backpiece and/or backside of the holster.
3. From the outside of the backpiece to the inside of the holster.
If you look through the belt slot area of the holster with it on the belt/body, you should not be able to see any daylight. If you can see through this belt tunnel area, the holster is not approved.
Holster/backpiece must be constructed of “normal thickness” common holster making materials, no filler is allowed to hide an offset. In simple terms, the back of the holster must be held tightly against the outside of the belt for proper concealed carry (for questions, refer to #1 above and re-read the “Purpose” section in the front of this rulebook).¹
G. Must be constructed of normal thickness common holster making materials (leather, Kydex, plastic, nylon, etc.).
H. May not position the firearm where the breech face (autos) or rear of the cylinder (revolvers) is below the center of the belt. NO drop loops are permitted.³ Holsters for females may position the breech face of a pistol or rear of the cylinder of a revolver up to 1 ½” below the center of the belt.
NOTE: IWB style holsters are exempt from this criterion.
I. Must hold the firearm positioned on the body so an object of ¾”width cannot pass between the shooter’s body and the inside of the firearm when the shooter is standing straight and upright.²
J. Must be positioned on the belt in a location that will keep the center of the trigger pad behind the centerline 4 of the body.
NOTE: Modification of current holsters and ammunition carriers to meet IDPA criteria is acceptable.
NOT Permitted:
A. Cross Draw Holsters.
B. Shoulder Holsters.
C. Small of the Back Holsters.
D. Holsters designed and/or marketed as “competition” models.
E. Muzzle forward or ‘on the belt’ adjustable cant holsters. Those that allow the cant to be adjusted by the shooter while the holster is on the belt are not allowed.
NOTE: Holsters with an adjustable cant via removal of bolts and repositioning of the backpiece are approved if set for neutral or muzzle rear cant.
F. Drop loop holsters.³
G. Positioning of the firearm where the breech face (autos) or the rear of the cylinder (revolvers) is below the center of the belt.³
H. Cutting of the front edge of the holster more that 1¾” below the breech face on pistols or 1” below the rear of the cylinder on revolvers.
I. Offset back-pieces and/or belt slots.³
J. Gap in the following areas:

1. From the body to the inside of the belt.
2. From the outside of the belt to the inside of the backpiece and/or backside of the holster.
3. From the outside of the back-piece to the inside of the holster.³

Not legal Legal
K. Seeing daylight when looking through the belt slot area of the holster with it on the belt/body.³
L. Any type of filler to hide an offset.
Exception – Police or military officers may use their duty rig, but ALL retention features of the holster MUST be used and all belt equipment (mace, handcuffs, etc.) must be present.
¹ NOTE: Holsters for females are exempt from F. criteria, but may not cant the handgun away from the body past 90 ° to the ground.
² NOTE: Female shooters are exempt from this test.
³ NOTE: Female shooters are exempt from this criterion.
4 NOTE: The seam on the side of a shooter’s pants may or may not indicate where the centerline of a shooter’s body is located. For IDPA purposes, the centerline of the body originates in the center of the armpit and goes straight down.
3. Future Holster Approval
At this time, IDPA is going to try to avoid having a holster list. However, should we find that competitors are straying from the purpose and principles of IDPA, an “extremely abbreviated and restrictive” approved holster list will be reinstated. MDs and SOs are encouraged by HQ to use the FTDR penalty when illegal equipment is used at their matches.
D. Belts.
Gun belts may be no wider than 1 ¾” or thicker than 5/16” and must pass through the pant loops.
E. Ammunition carriers.
1. IDPA Magazine Carrier Criteria
Magazine carrier must:
A. Be designed for concealed carry and suitable for all day continuous wear.
B. Be worn on a standard belt of no more than 1 ¾” width that must pass through the belt loops on the shooter’s pants.
C. Hold the magazine with enough tension to allow it to be turned upside down and retain a fully loaded magazine.
D. Cover 2” of the magazine as measured from the top of the cartridge rim down the back flat of the magazine tube.

2” measurement Front face of magazine covered Not Acceptable
E. Cover the entire front face of the portion of the magazine inside the carrier. The front face is defined as the side of the tube away from the shooter’s body.
F. Hold the magazine within 10 degrees of vertical (80-100° to the ground) position on the belt, no substantial forward or rear cant.
G. Be worn in a belt location that will position the front edge of the carrier behind the centerline of the body."

#10 Mark Perez

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:05 PM

Thanks so far. I wonder if, since Wilson's holster that looks just like Saf's 560 is called "The Adjuster" - if it's legal and Saf's 560 might not be?

A customer asked me if I knew if the 079 pouch was legal, if it covered 2" of the mag? I couldn't answer. But I figured someone here would be all over it.
be


Wilson's "Adjuster" is the Safariland 560 , just marketed under the WC name with a nice big mark-up <_<

Posted Image

According to WC , it "Meets I.D.P.A. criteria." By default , I would think the Saf 560 "Meets I.D.P.A. criteria" too. Fwiw, the 560 was the holster in IDPA until Comptac became more popular.
The 079 is marketed by Safariland under their Concealment/Accessories page.

Posted Image

For my G17 mag , it covers over 2" as described by the magazine pouch rule (D.) and indeed meets all the other criteria posted above.

Edited by Mark Perez, 01 March 2006 - 04:20 PM.

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#11 jkelly

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 04:19 PM

Mr. Enos
If I remember correctly any OTB holster can be either legal of illegal depending on who wears it. What's legal for you might not be legal for me.

I've bought three 560s (from you) for different guns because I felt they were IDPA legal on me and I've had no problems using two of them in IDPA competitions, yet.



Respectfully,

jkelly

Edited by jkelly, 01 March 2006 - 04:20 PM.


#12 benos

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 06:20 PM

Mr. Enos
If I remember correctly any OTB holster can be either legal of illegal depending on who wears it. What's legal for you might not be legal for me.

I've bought three 560s (from you) for different guns because I felt they were IDPA legal on me and I've had no problems using two of them in IDPA competitions, yet.

Respectfully,

jkelly

Thank you. I kind of figured that for the holsters... and I guess it's probably true even on the mag pouches (even if they cover 2"), depending on how you wear them. Now that I typed that, I realized what I was looking for is a "it's legal if you wear it properly" category.
be
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#13 Jeff Phillips

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 06:18 PM

It must also depend on the gun the holster is cut for. My 5182 for my Beretta 92 only has 1.35" between the breechface and the bottom of the cut.




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