[Matthew Mink]

Iron sights, freestyle, 50 yards, what is considered a good group? Did a search and couldn't find anything definitive.

ETA: Also 10 shot groups.

This post has been edited by Matthew Mink: 25 October 2005 - 11:37 AM

[lynn jones]

two inches would be great!

lynn

[al503]

Heck, I just wish I could discern a two inch spot on a target at 50 yards with iron sights.

[Clay1]

Matthew, something tells me that you have a better understanding of what is good or not good at these ranges than I but I wanted to make a comment that it should probably be based on what your weapon is capable of. If you have a gun that shoots 3" off of a bench with sandbags it is going to be unrealistic to expect 2" groups offhand.

Groups should be 5 shots and averaged over 5 groups to get a realistic sampling. One spectacular group doesn't make the grade.

I am not close to your level of shooting but my Glock 34 averages about 3" off of bags and if I could shoot into a 6" group at 50 I would be very happy, but bluntly 8", 5 shot groups would still be good at my level of skill.

Curious what others think. Doubling bench preformance would be my guess as a good group. Those of you up the skill ladder might very well be able to ring more performance out of your weapon.

Rick

This post has been edited by Clay1: 25 October 2005 - 11:35 AM

[Matthew Mink]

Lynn is the one that can get 2" groups.

Actually I have no clue what is good at 50 yards...

Oh yeah meant to say 10 shot groups.

[Clay1]

Haven't shot 10 shot groups from the bench at 50. Probably intimidated to do so because of facts staring back at me.

Would guess that 5 to 6" would be damn good from the bench. Being an old benchrest boy from days gone by it is amazing how those wonderful little 3 shot groups open up when you add 2 more rounds to the group to make it a 5 shot group. Doubling that to 10 shots would definately open the group size but also tell you more about your ability.

I would start shooting these groups from the bench with sandbags to get a benchmark for comparison. Freestyle for 10 rounds on an IPSC target all in the C zone, I would be happy. 10 rounds at 50 yards all in the A zone is beyond my abilities and I don't mind saying so.

Rick

This post has been edited by Clay1: 25 October 2005 - 12:08 PM

[eerw]

My guess and my goal would 10 shots in the A-zone in about a 5" cluster would be great..( heh..that makes me , just thinking like that.)

for me good would be 70% in the A, rest in the C, none in the D.. offhand.


In my recent, but minimal practices..

I have been playing around with targets at the 20-25 yard range..trying to work on the upper A/B ..with iron sights I have been working on drills to build my confidence to shoot 3 and 5 shot groups at speed vs no time pressure..find little diffenence in the groups as long as I see everything..

guess I'll move this out to 50 the next time I make it to the range..and shoot prone and standing goups..

This post has been edited by eerw: 25 October 2005 - 12:59 PM

[Flexmoney]

Dang Matt. You are getting out there in the land of bullet drop, wind drift, sight regulating and all that. And, freestyle...I think the Bianchi guys like to go prone on the Practical, if they can.

Looking in my Sierra manual, a 10mph cross wind will push a Major 180g bullet off by 0.71 inches, 1.42 inches at 20 mph.

Skinny front sight...fat front sight. (I shot a stock G22 front sight at 35y+ in a match a while back. That sucked. I think that thing is 0.165 wide or so. )

Whatever group you can manage at 25y...would have to more than double at 50y.

Maybe some of the Bianchi guys can weigh in. They like to shoot 480's with a high X count.

[Erik Warren]

I'm at the edge of my abilities and my most accurate load, keeping them in the A zone at 40 yards. So if I could keep them in at 50, that would be great.

[tightloop]

I would say if you could shoot an 8 to 10 inch group offhand that would be great....off the bench, I would say 6" is great...I have a tough time with those 2" groups from roll over prone...

[BigDave]

1.5-2" @ 50 is great while shooting prone. Standing, and you'll open up to probably 4-6", perhaps less. The X-ring on the NRA D1 is 4", so the goal is always less than that.

[Carlos]

Though it is not purely a small-group shooting exercise, maybe some info can be taken from the results / discussion for the classifier "Area 5 Standards" (which features a 50 yard target):

Link: http://www.brianenos...showtopic=15938

I last shot this in Limited with a CZ Standard IPSC and at the 50 yard line, was able to keep the rounds on the paper, but with my shooting skill, I was not able to do much better and there were 2 Ds. BTW, all the other Limited shooters had at least one mike at the match (York in '05); I think my gun could have done better, but under time pressure all I could manage was all hits on paper.

Luckily, there was a Bianchi shooter on our squad to demonstrate the possibilities; he shot last & showed us the value/speed of going prone. All 50 yard shots (save one C) in the A zone. He shot Open, Minor. I asked about a hold for a Major .40 load: his advice was aim dead on & you will hit slightly high. he was right.

This post has been edited by Carlos: 25 October 2005 - 01:36 PM

[EricW]

Why not ask THE man: http://www.dougkoeni.../contact_us.htm

[carinab]

I haven't practiced it regularly since the mid nineties but at 50 yd prone our coach would demand a group that could be covered by a coffee cup. Off hand at 50 yd, he'd want to be able to cover it with his hand. In other words, what Big Dave said....

[Ron Ankeny]

With no time limit, no wind, and proper light, I pretty much expect to hold the A-zone standing without support. Is that pretty good? That's for you to decide.

[Matthew Mink]

After reviewing what everyone says, there is a basic range of 6 to 8" is considered 'good'.

Of course there is a story to go along with the reason I asked in the first place. It is no secret I have never considered myself a group shooter. Over the past year I have been building CZ pistols for IDPA and USPSA for people and when I sight them in I do so at 40 or 50 yards usually if I change the sights. I guess I never realized that all of that sighting in was practice and I was getting better at shooting groups at long distances. I took a CZ 97B (.45 ACP) that I was doing up for myself and went out to sight it in. I did not know the distance I would use for .45, so I experimented and just shot about 100rds to see where the bullet was impacting at 5, 7, 10, 25, 40, 50. Then I would file the front sight down and repeat. As I was getting done I ran out of light and couldn't confirm the hits at 50 to finish zeroing the gun. Next day rolls around and I shoot the first 10 shots at 50 just to see if the gun hit where I thought it would. Walked down to the target and 8 of 10 were in the A zone, and the only 2 that weren't were about an inch below the A zone. I also was shooting practice RNL ammo that is about 160pf, my good stuff at 169pf would have impacted higher on the target and probably all 10 would be in the A zone or at least touching it. Thats when it hit me. I've gotten better at shooting groups and didn't even realize it. Part of it was practice, part of it was not trying or thinking. Sound familiar?

BTW, the group was nothing stellar, about 10 inches. So I've got a little more work to do, but man what an improvement.

[Ron Ankeny]

Quote

After reviewing what everyone says, there is a basic range of 6 to 8" is considered 'good'.

Let's put this in a bit different light. Put two plate racks side by side at 50 yards with five plates up per rack. How many folks can clean both racks day in and day out, cold and on demand, standing without support? Make those plates 6 inches in diameter and see what kind of results we get. There is a difference between good and great. I would dare say 10 rounds into a 6 inch circle (par performance) is better than just "good".

[j1b]

Everyone has said it - definition of 'good' is subject to interpretation right?

Matt placed 3rd at nationals a year or two ago, so personally I expect his definition of good is probably different than ours, or most people's.

When practicing for the 50 yard standards at Area 4 a couple of years ago the first thing I did was just shoot a couple of groups to make certain the gun was sighted in and understand in ideal circumstances (in other words, plenty of time) what was the combination of me and the gun capable of. That day, I was shooting somewhere around a 5 or 6 inch group.

That makes sense to me because at 25 yards I expect to be able to shoot a 2.5 inch group given plenty of time.

However - as evidenced at Area 4 that same year - I've found that 24" grouping at 50 yards was about par for me under match pressure

J

[Rob Boudrie]

I guess you've got to become a gunwriter - all those articles in G&A and the like show pretty tight groups

[P.E. Kelley]

My benchmark is twice the mechanical accuracy of the firearm as fired from the bench.

With 10 carefully placed shots from a proper bagged position going into 2" would make me happy with 4" groups offhand.

It may sound like BS but 4" and less groups were not uncommon for me during the 50 yard slow fire phase of bullseye matches.

PK

[R112mercer]

In PPC the Ten ring on the NRA B27 target is 3"x4", the X ring 2"x3". Without being under the clock and using the right gun you should be able to keep them all in there. My best in an actual PPC match is 230 out of 240 possible points on the 50 yard stage (24 rounds, 6 sitting, 6 prone, 6 left hand barricade, 6 right hand barricade in 2 min. 45 sec.). On the Classifier Long Range Standards I've been able to shoot all A's except for one C, a little slow, however. Offhand 6" is nice, 4" is great (the A zone is 4" across).

[AlamoShooter]

Team Challenge uses 4" and 2" apiture targets at 45 and 50 Yards that are shot by the good teams with hand guns at least on the 4" , and most three person teams have one guy that will hit the 2" targets at 45 yards consitently. =BUT it is with a 22 and every one uses red dots.
Jamie

This post has been edited by AlamoShooter: 25 October 2005 - 09:10 PM

[Flexmoney]

Matthew Mink, on Oct 25 2005, 04:55 PM, said:

... so I experimented and just shot about 100rds to see where the bullet was impacting at 5, 7, 10, 25, 40, 50. .

That is probably something we all ought to do every so often.

I'll bet there are quite a few of use iron sight shooters that don't truly know where a=our guns are really zeroed...let only where they actually hit at various distance.

[Kimberkid]

I think that this excerise is kinda task specific. Dont bother showing up to the Bianchi Cup if you cant hold the X ring at 50 all day in Open class. Or if you cant hold 90% in the 10 ring for Stock. If you can do that at an IPSC match, you are a lord over all creation. It kinda shows the difference in what is required to win each game. For IPSC, if you can hold the A zone, how much better is nessecary?

IMO, what limits most peoples 50 yd. group size is not the quality of their gun, ammo, or trigger finger, but rather their eyes. Take a Limited gun that shoots 1" groups regularly and an Open gun that shoots 3" groups and shoot them side by side. I'd bet a shiny nickel your groups will be smaller with the open gun.

Course, I am assuming all shooting is done prone. Standing and shooting at 50? if it looks like it might be a "group" I'd call it good enough for any practical match.

[Ron Ankeny]

Quote

However - as evidenced at Area 4 that same year - I've found that 24" grouping at 50 yards was about par for me under match pressure

Didn't anyone ever teach you how to measure a group? You always toss out the fliers; all of the fliers. It's also very important to have a great recollection of your best performances and let the reality of your failures fade into oblivion. This is where senile dementia can actually be your friend. You can't remember how bad you sucked even if you wanted to remember, and the older you get the better you were.