[kevin c]

At the just completed GBC '05, held in Richmond, CA, we ran two stages side by side on the same range. For those of you crazy enough to think of trying the same, here are some observations.

First, our set up:

The range was a 25 yard deep outdoor pistol range, 135 feet wide. We set up two field courses, one of 23 rounds (ten paper and three steel) and another of 30 rounds (four steel and thirteen paper, with multiple ported barricades and a custom built set of drop open ports with a special activator. We had to put up a divider wall of snow fence because targets on one COF were visible from the other, and we wanted no cross fire.

Procedure:

We alternated running shooters. Once one side cleared the shooter, they would retreat uprange and let the other side shoot. Then both sides would go forward to score and reset.

How did it work out?

Pretty well, for us, given our particular circumstances. We ran about seventy shooters one full day and another twenty odd the next half day (the RO's shot the match separately). We used open squadding, so that if we got backed up, the shooters could go to another stage and not lose time. We had dedicated RO's, two for the short stage and three for the large, prop laden one. And our props held up pretty well, with only a couple reshoots for REF.

What problems were there?

There was no way to turn these fairly long field courses around in four minutes, first shot to first shot, the standard recommended. The first stage had to wait an extra minute at least for the other stage to get run, and you have to clear both sides before the first stage can bring up the next shooter. My stage tended to lag, even with three RO's, because of all the props that needed to be reset.

With open squadding, we kept having to do repeated stage briefings and walk throughs as new people showed up (we'd at least wait until we had a reasonable number of new shooters). We gave everybody their five minutes, but it got chopped up, between runs on the other stage, if that side hadn't finished its last group of already briefed shooters (fortunately, nobody complained).

We had occasional minor snafu's where we'd expect one side to shoot, and they wouldn't be ready, so the other side had to hustle up.

I don't think this format would work at a really big match on a tight schedule, using fixed squadding and schedules, especially if you have people who might complain about getting enough time to walk through (and I'm sure a really big match, both in terms of numbers and level, will have such).

What might make it work better?

Keep the courses of fire short and simple - longer courses and fancy props in one or both COF's means more time for turn around, and that can cause a major backup. Additionally, the more complicated the course, the more the shooters will want their whole five minutes (or more) to dope out the stage, and the more likely there will be complaints if they don't like how they get it.

The less movement the better - the shooter isn't as far down range at the end of the run, and there's less distance to cover to get back to clear the range for the other stage. If one side always goes first, this is the side that should mostly be short and sweet, distance wise.

Consider COF's such as speed shoots, that might allow the same competitor to go directly from the first to the second COF. This saves some of the time in gettng folks onto the second COF from uprange. You can save RO manpower as well (see below). At least have no or little movement in the first COF, if you're going to move straight to the second.

Have a good team of experienced RO's who can work well together in keeping things moving, clearing the ranges quickly and running the next shooter ASAP (without rushing them, of course ), keeping aware of cross range safety when preparing their side of the range for the next run. The ARO needs to hustle the shooter up range after scoring, not let him count hits and sign his score sheet down range. The RO's need to get their tapers and setters down and back quickly. Good communication between sides is paramount.

Have ENOUGH RO's. One each isn't going to work, even if experienced and dedicated to that COF. Two each, at least, more if you gotta have props and the like. Speed shoots might be an exception.

Don't run a multistring classifier or similar stage on a dual range - way too much time, I think.

Lost brass match only. Picking up mags is fine. Picking up brass means shooing people off the range from as far down as the last shooting position. And my experience is that brassers are almost always the last folks off the range.

All that being said, it went well for us. We had top notch RO's on both stages, and a bunch of cooperative and helpful shooters who all had a good time. I'd do it again, though I'd like to tweak the procedure a bit, as described above.



Kevin C.

This post has been edited by kevin c: 23 August 2005 - 03:57 PM

[shred]

Another possibility: separate the stages front-to-back in the berm enough that you can score and reset the close one while someone shoots the far one. That cuts a little time off and works especially well for a series of steel-heavy speed shoots, like when you don't want your 3-gun steel stages to turn into who-can-reload-fastest-fests. Easier done with 50-yard berms.

[short_round]

shred, on Aug 3 2005, 10:27 PM, said:

Another possibility: separate the stages front-to-back in the berm enough that you can score and reset the close one while someone shoots the far one.  That cuts a little time off and works especially well for a series of steel-heavy speed shoots, like when you don't want your 3-gun steel stages to turn into who-can-reload-fastest-fests.  Easier done with 50-yard berms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This might be difficult ... scoring with gun fire close by makes it hard to hear. Also, if the target as placed further up range, then they are further from the berm which makes shooting angles impacting the berm much harder to resolve. Unless you have a super high berm and have mass amounts of sand bags or hay bales.

One of the things that we learned on my stage was that 3 was the optimum number of RO's. One with the timer two clip boards. When the stage was over the clipboard RO finished adding up the score and signing the sheet as the next clipboard RO and timer ran the next shooter. After the score was added up that clipboard RO got the next shooter prepped. Also, since there was always an RO at the table it helped prevent foolishness with the shooting order since they could watch to make sure that people didn't bogart scoresheets into the on deck pile. ONe thing Thomas did which was pretty cool was initial the scoresheets of the shooters that were in the last walk through to make sure that someone wouldn't be able to say ... "yeah I was in the last walkthrough I should be in this group shooting."

I hope this made sense ... if not ... apologies ... I just got back from the bar.

[shred]

short_round, on Aug 4 2005, 01:04 AM, said:

This might be difficult ... scoring with gun fire close by makes it hard to hear.  Also, if the target as placed further up range, then they are further from the berm which makes shooting angles impacting the berm much harder to resolve.  Unless you have a super high berm and have mass amounts of sand bags or hay bales.

Most of the time we've done it it's with 2-3 short stages shot with the same shooter going from one to the other between them. If it's not shotgun steel, the targets are usually set close to one of the side berms and the stage rotated slightly for the more uprange COFs. Scoring is pretty easy if the scorekeeper follows the RO closely and can often be over before the shooter gets shooting on the next stage, even if they stay hot.

[Flexmoney]

We run two in a bay pretty often.

If not done right, it can turn into a real bottle-neck for the match.

The stages need to shoot quick, and score quick. Nothing too complicated for the shooters to figure out in the walk-thru, either.

We run two seperate squads, with seperate RO's.

One squad is on Stage A of the bay. Their shooter and RO step up (the rest of the range is cleared). They shoot, then clear the stage. Then, the squad on Stage B has their ready shooter (and RO) step up and shoot. When they finish, the bay is called clear, then both stages are scored and reset.

We don't hot-gun it between the stages. That opens up another can of worms...like, number of mags, confusing shooters, not really following the book/range commands, shooters starting on the second stage with locked holsters, etc. (Likely easy enough to overcome, but why make it tougher.)

Running one shooter on two stages in a row also means it takes longer to score. The RO has to call two stages instead of one. The scorekeeper has to shuffle the paper work. The shooter and the RO have to walk from one stage to the other.

At a Major match, I like to have a CRO for the whole bay, then two RO's for each stage.

[ChuckS]

shred, on Aug 4 2005, 07:41 AM, said:

--- snip ---
Most of the time we've done it it's with 2-3 short stages shot with the same shooter going from one to the other between them.
--- snip ---

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shred,

Even if this saves time, I really don't care for shooting 2 stages back to back. I have screwed up the second stage by getting a proceedural because, quite frankly I was not really ready to shoot the second stage. I always feel rushed to get through the second and that is really not fair to anyone. The last time that we did this at a club match, about half the shooters on my squad earned a penalty on the second stage. The stages were sort of similar and one had a strong hand only spot and about half the guys went freestyle. A couple even went strong hand on the first stage! Just about everybody did some hesitation on the second stage as they sorted things out in their heads as they worked the stage. I think that if you have 2 RO's, one for each stage, then the time spent would be a wash.

[shred]

ChuckS, on Aug 4 2005, 12:18 PM, said:

shred, on Aug 4 2005, 07:41 AM, said:

--- snip ---
Most of the time we've done it it's with 2-3 short stages shot with the same shooter going from one to the other between them.
--- snip ---

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... I have screwed up the second stage by getting a proceedural because, quite frankly I was not really ready to shoot the second stage. I always feel rushed to get through the second and that is really not fair to anyone. The last time that we did this at a club match, about half the shooters on my squad earned a penalty on the second stage. The stages were sort of similar and one had a strong hand only spot and about half the guys went freestyle. A couple even went strong hand on the first stage! Just about everybody did some hesitation on the second stage as they sorted things out in their heads as they worked the stage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Think of it as two strings in a classifier. Pretty much the same issues and solutions. It's a non-issue with shotgun steel-- knock em all down, write down the time, the squad sets 'em up while you knock down the next array.

Note that if you have a separate scorekeeper and RO for the first and second stages, scoring is done in parallel (the shooter needs a delegate) and Flex's delays don't apply.

[AWLAZS]

Quote

"We don't hot-gun it between the stages. That opens up another can of worms...like, number of mags, confusing shooters, not really following the book/range commands, shooters starting on the second stage with locked holsters, etc. (Likely easy enough to overcome, but why make it tougher.)"

I have seen this ruin a match for people. I don't like doing it

[Vlad]

We do this all the time for our indoor "practice" matches. We get anywhere up to 40 people (mostly around 25) and we shoot 4 stages. What we do is split everyone into 2 squads and set up two stages. Each squad is assigned to a stage. A shooter from one squad shoots, then a shooter from the other squad shoots the other stage. Then we all walk up and score and tape and the like. We repeat till the squads finish their stages and then we switch around so the both squads get to shoot both stages. And we all done we take down the stages and build 2 new ones and do it all over.

We normally run 4 stages with 25-30 people in about 3 to 4 hours. It sounds a bit long, but a lot of the time is spent with people shooting the .... stuff. We used our indoor matches to also introduce new shooters to the sport so some time is spent on coaching and explaining the game.

Works for us.

[geezer-lock]

I have grown to loath “festival squading” and I truly hate having to run multiple stages back-to-back. I have been to small clubs that have limited real estate (four pistol bays) that managed to put on an excellent 8 stage match with a little advance planning. They set up four stages, ran fixed squads, got everybody through, and then took a break to set up the other four stages.

The key is in keeping the second set of stages simple so that the prop heavy stuff is set up well in advance. Everything is marked or nailed down so that the change over can be done really quickly. This practice is much safer and easier on the RO’s and shooters.

David C