16 replies to this topic

[John Thompson]

I currently have a Benelli Nova as my only shotgun and am currently looking for a cheap autoloader but my question is this:  Is shooting a pump for most 3 gun matches a handicap.  I have no problem with the pump in IDPA but in that game most people shoot a pump.  I can work the action as fast as I can recover and acquire another target most of the time; but I do want to win.   I realize that the 7rd capacity of the Nova is a handicap

(Edited by John Thompson at 12:12 am on Oct. 7, 2001)

[Avalanche]

John,

I like my Remington 1100 autoloader synthetic.
Check Walmart...I purchased mine a few months ago for $329.00 plus tax. I then added 5+ 1 tube.

This simple setup smokes my previous pump.

[Flexmoney]

JT,

I think that you will recover faster with the softer shooting auto also.

[Chriss Grube]

JT,
It depends on the level of competition. I ran my duty 870 at the clang and bang for a couple years. Kicked the crap out of a lot of semi shooters. Overall the pump is great for our job but the semi is the ticket for competition. For limited class I don't think it is at as big a disadvantage as it is in open.

[DblTap]

I used an 870 for my first year or so of 3 gun competition. After some practice I actually won a few club level stages with it. The main handicaps to me were closely spaced poppers/plates on speed shoot type stages (an auto win hands down on these) and shooting around barracades. Sometimes the whole gun almost has to be "pumped" while the fore end is held stationary when shooting from a contorted position to stay in the box.

On field courses with widely spaced targets the pump typically isn't at a disadvantage to the autos if the shooter is skilled in it's use.

Since you already have the Nova, I'd suggest you go shoot and have fun. You'll do fine and there is a certain amount of satisfaction in beating any of the auto guys.  

[kellyn]

You can compete with a pump but nobody seems to.  I've broken 2 seconds on the Dozier drill w/ a pump (5 pepper poppers at approx 10 yards,  low ready start).  Pumps will almost always be slower and I don't think they are any more reliable.  For every semi failure, I've seen someone short-stroke a pump.

Of course, the more goofy the positions, the harder it is for a pump to compete.  It is much slower to pump a shotgun while shooting in the hunched over, half-prone, half-kneeling, twisted to the right position.  These kind of positions are common in 3 Gun.  I do think, however, that a pump could have been competitive at this year's SOF and WC 3 Gun but not at Myst. Mountain or 3 Gun Nationals - both of which had some goofy positions.

Rob Leatham once told me that he thought Limited class should require pump shotguns.  Interesting idea but I'm kind of neutral/lukewarm to it.  

Go shoot your Nova!

[Patrick Sweeney]

It depends on how good you are, and how cruel the course designer it.  At Second Chance, the shooting was simple, and all shooting.  8 pins as fast as you can, all in a five-foot box.  The best pump time was always one second behind the auto time  (I know, I set both records: 2.7 sec vs. 3.7)

If a stage is mostly running, with open shots and time to pump between targets, you can keep up.  But the first box you run to that has five tight-clustered poppers facing it, your time will go down by a second vs. the auto shooters.

Leaning around a barricade you're going to have a hell of a time pumping at any kind of speed.

[Oleg]

What is a Second chance anyway?
What would be your time with auto / pump on 6 B-Zones at 15 yards?
Regards.
Oleg.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Second Chance was bowling pin nirvana.  The Optional Shotgun event was eight pins at 25 feet, four across on two shelves, with each shelf five feet long.  (About four feet from #1 to #4 pin.)

Time started on the blank start signal, with the shotgun shouldered but touching the rail in front of you, and ended when the last pin hit the ground.

I'll have to set up our plates and try them to see what my times would be.

[Oleg]

Thanks Patrick.
I will try that next weekend, seems like 4 seconds or slightly less so far using pump.
2.7 seconds is of course out of range for that. Didn't know that auto can be so much faster.
What is the best split time for auto shooting at different targets?
How do you get a time when the last one hits the ground?
Just by adding some time to the last shot?
Regards.
Oleg.

[DBChaffin]

Oleg, I imagine they use a stop plate plugged into the timer.  This gives a stop signal when the plate goes down instead of the last shot.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Timing at SC was always done with stopwatches, and averaging the times of three timers.  they'd start the watches when the blank gun wnet off, and stopped when the last pin hitthe ground or the backstop.  The timers at SC were mostly teenaged girls with good reflexes and lots of practice at timing.  "Averaging" was easy for them, as they often had three times that agreed within a tenth of a second.  the average was rounded to tenths, and recored as a score. Thus, something like 3.95, 3.94, 3.89 would be averaged and rounded to 3.9 seconds, not bad as a pump time.

The times (by electronic timer) I practiced for getting ready for SC, went something like this:

.85 seconds to first shot for both, then

.35 splits for pump

.20 to .25 for auto

then about .35 to .5 for a pin to get from table to ground.

To take an electronic time and compare it to a stopwatch time, add .35 to .5 seconds, depending on how clean a hit it was.  A snatch-off pin, add .35, a casual trip, add .5  Anything else you can't compare, simply because of the variable time fo the last trip.

So, to practice for Second Chance, I'd work up through the spring until my practice times were running 2.4-2.5 for auto and 3.4-3.5 for pump.

This with full-power buckshot or #4 lead equivalent.

Then up north (SC was in Northern Michigan) I'd warm up and post a decent time as a standard/tiebreaker, then cut loose for the winning time.  I had to settle for second place one year because my winning time tied the other guy, but his tiebreaker was better than mine.  Always post a good tiebreaker!

Our club did quite a bit of shotgun pin shooting, and the pump and auto electronic times records at the club were 2.95 pump and 1.98 auto.  Yes, we practiced a lot.

It takes the last pin about .60 to get off, but the electronic timer eliminates the timers .25 reaction to start the stopwatch, thus the .35 addition.

[Oleg]

Hi Patrick. The time you have got for the pump is really good, I couldn't get any better splits than 0.40 sec.
And time for auto is the same like handgun splits between close targets like el pres at my best runs.
You must have been practicing a lot.
I'm not sure if I can organize 3 teenage girls for my next trip to the range ,
guess gonna have to use a timer  .
What is your split time for a handgun (double tap and different targets)?
Regards.
Oleg.

[kellyn]

Pat, I just reread your times.  2.7 seconds!  You rock!

[Patrick Sweeney]

The "three teenage girls" part was the idea of the founder of Second Chance, Richard Davis.  He started the match before electronic timers, so needed some timing method.  He hired the girls to keep the money in the local economy, and because many were cute.  (Still are.)

As for handgun times, I'd have to give complete dimensional layouts for split times on separate targets to be relevant.  If you're curious about pin times, the handgun times were easy to list.  The Main Event was/is five pins, three on the bottom shelf two on the top.  Gun starts on the rail, max of eight rounds in it.  Time starts on the blank gun, and ends when the last pin hits the ground or backstop.
You shoot six tables, and your best five are your score, with the sixth as the tiebreaker.

A Master Blaster would have to shoot a 15-16-17 second total (varied from year to year) to win.  To stay in the loot you had to do under twenty flat.  That's a 3.5 to 4.0 second average.

An Ordinary Standard Shooter could win with a time anywhere from 19 to 22 seconds.  To stay in the loot you had to be under 25 flat.

Time to first shot is probably .90, last pin off takes another .50, so four shots for an MB would be 2.1, a .50 split.  For the OSS, it would be a .90 split.

Before you smirk, the sweet spot on a pin is about the size of the A zone in a head shot.  At 25 ft.  Try a few runs on your next practice session.

[Oleg]

Hi Patrick.
Just gave it a try, could not find any pins, used 8 b-zones instead in one row, 1 foot apart, from 10 yards.
Time .80+.42+.36+.36+.36+.35.+35+.35 = 3.35 (best run out of 5) Ammo #4 shot federal  ("family pack" from Wal-Mart, shotgun rem 870 11 round tube, no other mods.
Need to say that I had 2 misfeeds - round got stuck below the feed ramp, guess remington doesn't like to be pushed too hard. Changing levels would add probably about .3 sec + .35 sec at the end = ~4 sec.
Way too long comparing with your auto 2.7sec. Looks like I need to look for some auto like benelli m1 for the next season.

Regards.
Oleg.

[Oleg]

Hi Patrick.
I just found useful  an exercise:
2 shots at b-zone at 10 yards: my best run was .95 with a pump gun = .64 + .31.
Was cheating on safety - it was off. Need to modify it  first, guess it would add .1 - .2 sec.
.31 is a number to beat for me  - couldn't do it any faster.
Regards.
Oleg.
Regards.
Oleg.