[dirtypool40]

I know this may open a can of worms, and this is just my two cents. A lot of matches have done away with prize tables as too much work, and that's ok, this is never going to be a sport where you get rich off the prize table. I for one like the chance that I win something at a match.

With some friends a few years back, I ran a two day match with a prize table. In my humble opinion there are only two fair ways to award prizes; By raw order of finish, or by completely random drawing.

Awards by class are the worst kind of encouragement to sandbaggers. You want to feel like you wasted your time? Spend months putting together a great prize table and then have some 'bagger snake some juicy prize. That will turn even the most friendly participants into whiners.

For example; at Heinie's SSC the guns go by class (or did, I haven't shot it in a few years). Since you can enter on your Lim or L10 classification a shooter who is 94.99% in Lim can enter on his L10 card of an "A" and walk right up to the table and grab a gun as first "A". The #3 finisher goes home empty handed, but 1st "A" at 8th or 12th.....well you get the point.

The "Lewis System" is embarrassing it's so bad, imagine fighting to be 11th instead of 10th. I had mondo gun problems at the "Heritage" back in 2001. I finished 11th. Since there were 30 shooters I was declared "1st Silver" and got to go to the prize table 2nd OVERALL!!! and three times total. God, that was shameful.

Encourage either straight up competition, or relaxed fun, but DIScourage the sandbaggers.

Also, when trying to put a prize table together, quit your job. It takes 1000 follow up phone calls to get anything done. I also suggest that most sponsors are much more likely to give discounts than donations.

Get outside the IPSC box, our sponsors get pestered 10 times a day with requests. Get the local BBQ joint to do the food, feeding your staff as part of the deal. Get Coke, or the local Dodge dealer, encourage vendors. Frank Garcia does a great job on this, getting some range help from the Boy Scouts or other local organizations.

I would steer away from calling anyone a "Match" or "Stage" sponsor, and lean towards "Gold, Silver and Bronze" levels of sponsorship.

As an idea I don't see used much; if you know your match date far in advance, ask for donations of parts and gunsmithing services. It's a chance to get gunsmiths on board as sponsors, give them some publicity and get some neat custom guns built for your match. We ran a match a few years ago, where STI, Caspian, KKM, Barsto, Schuemann, Les Baer, Springfield and others came together with gunsmiths and we were able to GIVE AWAY 14 guns, about half truly custom. There were shotguns, carry guns, an Open gun, a 6" Limited, it was great, and ten of the 14 were by random drawing. (The other four were prizes in the side match).

Just some ideas to get you started, good luck.

[dajarrel]

My two-cents worth correspond exactly with dirtypool40.
Order of finish or Random.
Great topic guys,


dj

[JFD]

As someone who will likely never get more than used primers if a awards were by "order of finish" and not "by class", the SOB sandbaggers DO end up ruining this concept.

I've been in a heck of a lot more golf tournaments than shooting matches, but the concept is identical. In every case the sandbaggers take home the prizes while the folks with honest handicaps/classifications get squat. With a honest 10 handicap, I can't win squat unless it's a team match and we were to bring our own sandbagger (my regular foursome contains a giant sandbagger - we think).

At the USPSA matches I've attended, it's amazing how some "C" class shooters suddenly shoot "A" and "M" class scores.

I say "order of finish" is the only way to go.

Random drawing sucks so bad I'd never shoot a match that used this system. It's a shooting match, not a lottery. If the prizes don't award skill in some way, shape, or form, then I'd rather there be no prizes.

[rhino]

Prize tables, how they are run, and whether or not they exist plays no role in my shooting.

Given that, I agree that the only "fair" ways to do it are by order of finish or random drawing.

The problem with order of finish, though, is that when you have guns on the table, the people who win them will have no use for them and will just sell them. That's okay if the prizes are purchased, but I don't think it does a sponsor any good if it's donated. The people who would use the gun tend to be the same people who don't win the prizes, so I think random drawings have an edge in that one respect.

If it's cash, I think it obviously has to be in order of finish.

In fact, that gives me a an idea. Don't buy prizes, but give cash awards in order of finish. Then, if you get prizes donated by sponsors, award them by drawing. The best of both worlds and sandbagging is a non-issue.

[geezer-lock]

Why don’t you add a poll to this thread? That would give you a quick idea of what folks want.

I think the random drawing is nearly the best way to go. I would add some cash and refunds of match fees to 1-2-3 in each class. That would give a little extra to the winners without any additional chaos at the prize table and make their day a little brighter.

The Lewis system is not nearly as bad as you think. It isn’t really possible to “fight for 11th” or any other positions other than first overall. There are too many variables that can affect your overall standing including match DQ’s, no-shows and DNF’s. GSSF uses Lewis to good effect and gives prizes 10 deep in each class.

For my money I would like to see a combination of Lewis and random drawings. That way all the hot rocks can be satisfied with seeing where they stand in the pecking order and the rest of us can get a shot at some of the goodies.


geezer

[dirtypool40]

I actually did a combination of Random, order and class at the last big match I ran.

10 prize guns by random drawing, the 1st two going to RO's only.

4 prize guns to top two finishers each day in side match.

Remainder of prize table by random drawing, meaning we pick your name, you pick what prize you want. (Drawing a prize FOR a name is as dumb as Lewis, let folks pick what they want instead of handing a Glock striker to a revolver shooter).

Plaques and Free shoots by class. HOA and 1st in class got a FREE SHOOT for next year, 2nd & 3rd got plaques.




If I did it again, I think I would go guns by random drawing, prize table by order of finish. That way the top guys who won't even use them don't necessarily win the guns, but if they fought hard and finished well they get an early chance at something they might want off the prize table.

I would include FREE SHOOTS on prize table and Plaques for top 10 or top 16, and special catagories.

I am really becoming a non-fan of encouraging sandbaggers with gifts and trophies. Quit worrying about how you did in LEO, Senior "C" class and just shoot.

[shred]

Cash payback should be the last resort.

It's tempting because it's easy to manage and the very top shooters mostly want cash, but there is zero "leverage" on the sponsor and shooter dollars. You're a lot more likely to get $100 worth of parts out of a sponsor than $100 cash. A whole, whole lot more likely. Cash is profit straight off the top from them. Product has some margin built in, and also provides advertising-- sooner or later somebody that wants to try it will get it in their hands, if they win it or buy it from the winner at a discount.

[shred]

Random Drawings:

Give the winners some options for what they win. Handing a die-hard Open shooter a six-pack of singlestack .45 mags is a waste. Either draw names for trips to the prize table itself, or have a table with some stuff on it that the random winners get a pick of, and replace items as they go.

[kdj]

It seems to me that the whole discussion around prize tables depends on whether or not this is a competative sport.

If it is competative, then those with the most ability/practice/... should win and get the prizes. So, only order of finish (within Division) makes sense.

If it is more a "shoot for the fun of it" and a raffle to bring people in, then that makes sense.

There are in-between combinations that make no sense and allowing big prizes based on class seems to make no sense.

My proposal would be:

Seperate prize tables per division, with allocation based on number of competitors, order based on overall finish;
One big prize raffled so that everyone who attends has a chance of winning something;
Trophies per class, so that people feel good about improving, and automatic class advancement for class winner so the good feeling is distributed over time.

Encourgage people to excel and not to exploit the system for $$.

However, since I seem to invariably spend far more than the value of the best prize, just for the fun of shooting the match, I must not be very economically motivated and might not have a mainstream opinion here

Kevin

[blackdragon]

Order Of Finish!
Ivan

[Mistral404]

I like Dirtypool 40's ideas.
Sandbagging is the worst crime. So many get away with it.

I believe the majority of the monies come from the D, C, and B class shooters, they should be rewarded. Hence the random drawings does provide this.

[blackdragon]

I have a suggestion! Lets delete everyones classifiers and start over! I wonder where every one would end up?
Ivan

[BerKim]

If it's "Order of Finish", as a low "C" shooter, at my age, I'll never be in the top 16, so, I know, higher match fees are only being used to provide the top shoters with prizes. Why would I want to subsidize that? It's good experience, but not worth some of the costs involved.

So, maybe make a side entry to get into the prize pool. You could break the fees down by: "Match Fees" - everyone pays, "Prize Table by finish" - Optional, "Prize Table - Drawing" - optional. More like side matches. I'd rather have cheaper costs, to be able to justify shooting in a larger match. I'm shooting because I enjoy it, not for money and prizes and trophies (ok - if you seen me shoot, you already knew that).

I wouldn't do it by Class, only Division - eliminate the sandbaggers (although I've only heard stories, in my limited experience I haven't see it - but it seems to be a issue for enough people - that it's being done, or perceived that way, and causing bad feelings )

Keep it under $100, I wouldn't care how they do it.

[MasterLefty]

rhino, on Dec 7 2004, 11:06 AM, said:

The problem with order of finish, though, is that when you have guns on the table, the people who win them will have no use for them and will just sell them.  That's okay if the prizes are purchased, but I don't think it does a sponsor any good if it's donated.  The people who would use the gun tend to be the same people who don't win the prizes, so I think random drawings have an edge in that one respect.

Here's a crazy thought.

If you have frames or complete guns, have a random drawing for the guns before you go to the prize table. You win a gun, then you do not get a trip to the table.

After all of the guns have been handed out, then everyone remaining visits the table in order of finish.

shred, on Dec 7 2004, said:

Random Drawings:

Give the winners some options for what they win. Handing a die-hard Open shooter a six-pack of singlestack .45 mags is a waste. Either draw names for trips to the prize table itself, or have a table with some stuff on it that the random winners get a pick of, and replace items as they go.

Space City tried that little variation a few years ago. They would place 4 or 5 items on the table and call a name. You got to choose between only those. When my name was called, there were 4 fiber optic front sights and a mag brush.

I run open, so guess which item I picked.


Kenny

[mcoliver]

Back here we do not have prize tables so I may not know what I'm talking about.

But if I were there and I get to travel to attend matches, how about an additional incentive to go back to next year's match. And prod other "non-shooting related" donors like free plane tickets for two, or an accomodation at a better hotel near the match or something?

[Chris Rhines]

Seems like there's an easy way to eliminate sandbagging in awards by class: If a shooter shoots (say) 10% over his classification, he forfeits any shot at the prize table.

There are probably a million things wrong with this idea, but it's late and I'm tired...I'm sure that I'll think of some tomorrow.

- Chris

[Kingman]

I agree.

Make it like brakett racing. If you bust your classifier then you are out, as well if it meets the criteria of 3 GM's it should be an automatic bump.

I have been guilty. I shot 10% out of class at a major match. It took 2 months to reclassify me. That was not my fault. The reclassification should have taken place imediately.

[cjleabres]

to me, the most equitable would be order of finish with division winners walking the "combined" prize table first and then followed by the rest...everyone's order of walking of the prize table, including division winners, is determined by their division point totals...with this method, i realize that the sole revolver shooter (not knocking revo guys) might be the first to walk the prize table, but he or she earned it by winning his or her division...

until such time the sandbagging problem is resolved, class winners should continue to receive trophys or plaques but by no means walk the prize table before their order of finish...to do otherwise, only encourages further sandbagging...

i don't like the random drawing idea...although the prizes to me are a minute factor in why i compete, they are still a factor...reward shooters that put in the time, energy and money to be the best they can be...by shooting good and walking the prize table early, they might actually get something they can use, sell or give away...just my dalawa centavos...

[Kingman]

we are all forgetting that some C and D class shooters that will never move up in class. They deserve a right to win something if they are praciticing hard to shoot to their best. I have a good friend that practices as hard or harder than I do. He never will move past C class do to an injury. He deserves a chance at the prize table as much as anyone else if he wins his class. He will never be high enough overall to win something decent but he should get something for his performance to his level.

The importatnt thing is eliminating the sandbaggers as quickly as possible. The delay in results being used to classify people is the problem. The classification system is the problem. Thats what needs fixed. The class winners deserve soemething. Revise the classification system to prevent people from sandbagging.

[Kimberkid]

As an example, I have shot a number of Master class AP scores, and have yet to be reclassified. I have no idea why this is, and I wish I would get reclassified because making Master is the goal I set when I first started shooting. I shoot so few matches with a prize table that it is of little to no consequence. I personally like the idea of a random drawing, though I can agree with why others dont like it. This whole discussion bring back the memory of a local guy here that shot AP with us for the past year and a half or so. This guy ended up buying 2 different revo's for AP and showed up to every match, practiced on his own, and was in everyone's general opinion a really nice guy. The downside, he sucked. He sucked really bad. He put up scores that if doubled, would still be shameful at best for a beginner. The poor guy tried his ass off and had fun, it is for guys like him that I like to see a random drawing. Another good one is Kevin Angstadt and his crew from Virginia, they come out every year to shoot our state matches and they all kick our asses for the most part. Yet every year, if there is a prize table, they use their number 1,2,and 3 place finishes to get key chains and cleaning kits. Suffice to say that it will never be that everyone is happy with the prize table situation, but if it were really that big of a deal, we would all quit. So i guess lets all show up and shoot and all be winners.

[davecutts]

rhino, on Dec 7 2004, 04:06 PM, said:

The problem with order of finish, though, is that when you have guns on the table, the people who win them will have no use for them and will just sell them.

Complete horse shit, we're all gun nuts, and what gun nut doesn't WANT/NEED another gun?

I also feel the random/lottery system sucks cat balls. Thosse who put in the time money and extra effort should be rewarded. An exceptional shooter once told me he had a dude offer to buy from him a prize gun for what he had into it. Which the buyer assumed was the match fee, travel, and hotel expences at about a grand. Our shooter felt it was more like 25,000+ rounds a year for four or five years, a nominal hourly fee spent loading and burning all that ammo, plus gunsmithing, mags, time off, and felt $10,000 would be very fair for what he had into it.

[JFD]

I like the suggestion from Chris. A competitor shoots 10% over his/her classification and there's no trip to the prize table. An instant move to the next highest class should go with it.

That might take care of the sandbaggers, maybe...

[Flexmoney]

Guys,

We have had various threads on prize tables and sandbagging and the like. The debate is never ending.

In this forum, I'd like to keep the focus on match management.

Please share what has worked for you at the matches yuo have been involved with.

Lets try to keep the debate to a minimum.

Thanks.

[Action Pistolero]

I start with the last place finisher and work my way up. The top finishers are getting cash and other awards so everyone walks away with something. Guns would be a different story. A random drawing would be best for those.

The Kansas City guys do it right, in my opinion. The match fee is $85 and you get a $50 certificate from Zero and a $50 certificate from Starline as you make your first trip to the prize table.

[scorch]

at the Duble Tap Championship We ran a Poll on our web site about 6 years ago and the Random Vs Order Ran right down the A / B Line.A and Above wanted order of finish Band below wanted randonm drawing. The B &C Shoters are the largest part of your match. But Folks that put in hard work should be reward also. So we Give away STI Frames to the Top two(2) Divison Winners and a STI Slide to the third place guy (also give custom Wood trophies to the division winners) For class winners we give them REALLY NICE laser engraved crystal trophies. Then we do a Bucket raffel for the Largest most expense Prizes on the Table IE: Dillion 550's dillion case feeders Etc. Folks get 5 tickets to put in the bukets in front of the big ticket items. can palce one in each or all in one bucket. then we draw fore that item from that bucket. the Rest of the Prixze table is a Modified Raffel, We draw a name and you have choice at anything that is left on the Table. We belive this awards most of the top guys with a performance award and gives the Match supporters (B,C,D,)a way to get something good also. not the best but a mix of both worlds. HOA gets a special Trophy and prize different each year (last year was a Custom AR)